125 - Peter Burt - Man Stuck on Desert Island!

Episode 125 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with Peter Burt. Peter has found himself "washed up on a desert island" after floating around in the sea of Long Covid for a couple of years. We talk through a lot of fascinasting stuff, the idea of "not feeling like a man" and how difficult but extremely important it is to ask for help - and then receive it!

This is such an honest conversation - thankyou Peter for being brave and getting in touch, and we hope that this will resonate with others who are struggling.

Patrick McKeown "The Breathing Cure" is available from here (go to "store") and you can use code "breathebetter5" for 5% off
James Nestor "Breath"
Michelle Irving episode - being washed up on a desert island

Long Covid Breathing - work with me & Vikki

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID Podcast. I am delighted to welcome my guest today, Peter Burt. I got an email, I think it was before Christmas, from this total unknown person. And this happens quite a lot. And I love hearing from people. 

But this particular email really resonated with me because I thought, haha, a guy talking about mental health. Okay, we need to do this. And you've been persuaded to do it. And here we are today. So a very, very, very warm welcome to the podcast.

Peter Burt  
Hello, Jackie. Yeah, thank you for having me on. It was, yeah, I was actually sat in a hospital carpark waiting for a CT scan. And I was just listening to one of your episodes. And it was the whole episode just just resonated with me. It was almost like, the thing you were saying. And everything he was talking about just seemed to be my own internal voice. And I was like, this is really resonating for me, I really get this. And I just started typing an email to you there and then.

Jackie Baxter  
I'm so glad you did. And I think you know, it's so important, you know, this kind of resonating with people, and different people's stories are going to resonate with different people, which is why it's important to have different people's stories on because not everybody is the same. But I think you know, that's that's such a huge thing, isn't it to see that kind of your story reflected in someone else's? And oh, what did they do? And what did they have success with? Or, or not, in certain cases. 

Peter Burt  
Exactly. And it's also it depends what stage you're out of your journey as to what will resonate with you as well. Because if you hear something at the wrong time, or you're not ready to hear it or listen to it, it just flies straight over your head. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, exactly, different things at different times. I think again, yes. So, so, so important. So would you be able to just say a little bit about yourself, and maybe what life was like in the before times?

Peter Burt  
whenever I talk to anybody new anyway, I always feel like I have to explain the person I was before, so that they can understand maybe a little bit about the person I am now. I'm trying to drop it a little bit because I'm trying to learn that maybe not everybody needs to know what I was. And maybe I don't need to share with everybody that this is the person who I thought I was, this amazing guy. When actually, I'm quite happy with the person I'm becoming and maybe I need to just drop some of that. 

But I'm not there yet. So the person who I was, obviously still am happily married, two teenage sons and pre COVID I was like the all-action-dad. At weekends I was on my road bike cycling 50 to 70 miles, just not even thinking about it, was just where shall I go for a cake and a cup of tea today. It's 30 miles away, off I go. 

And the next day I would say right, which one of my sons wants to go for another bike ride? Or do we put a rucksack on and do we go walking around the Norfolk coast. I just always felt like I was this action dad. Pull up my pants, we put the rucksacks on. Off we go. 

And at work. I mean, I'm a director of a contracting company. So our days just, you can never plan the day, it changes on a phone call. And it's a heavily multitasking job, mentally and physically. And I loved it. You know, you're doing this mental aerobics all day every day. And I kind of loved everything about that. Or so I thought. 

And I think it's only on reflection that actually I probably wasn't where I should have been at the time. Because I was heading for probably quite a dark place. I was fairly stressed out at work. My coping mechanisms for a stressful day was jump on my bike and do exercise. Go for a run. My coping mechanism were all about Well, I've had a bad day and what can I blast myself with to get over it? So then suddenly to have all of that stripped away when COVID came was quite a hammer blow.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah absolutely. And I see a lot of self and your story, which is I guess why you resonated with some of the stuff I was saying. And I think for me part of recovery has been, you know, I still have some of the same coping mechanisms that I did before. Like, I still blast myself with exercise some of the time. But I also know when not to do that, when actually maybe a healthier coping mechanism for me today, because I've had a really stressful day, maybe would be actually laying down and doing some breathing, or baking a cake or you know something that is a bit less sort of thrashing yourself. 

But I wouldn't have known that years and years ago, you know, I just kept doing the same things, because that's what I always did. And, you know, that's how they become patterns, I suppose, isn't it? And why would you do something different because it's what you've always done. 

Peter Burt  
It was a coping mechanism that I felt was really working well for me. And not only that, that was my identity. On my downtime, I was this fit healthy, go getting action dad is what I thought. And I thought that's what everybody needed from me, my my wife, my family, my work. 

I think you hold this mental image of the person that you think you are, and you think that everybody wants you to be. And I think when that's stripped away from you, it's quite frightening. And it can be quite a scary process. 

When COVID came, it hit me like an absolute train. I really struggled with my breathing, I had to have oxygen sensors sent to me from the doctors just so they could keep a check of where my oxygen levels were. And I forget what the levels were. But I know that if I went down to a certain level and stayed there for an hour, then I had to call the hospital. And at times, I was getting to 30 minutes, 45 minutes. And then suddenly marks is in the go back up. 

So I'm struggling to breathe and part of me was like, I quite want to get the next 15 minutes because then maybe I can go to a hospital and be looked at it. It was bizarre how you almost felt like you wanted to get a little bit iller to get looked at. And I think luckily, on reflection, I didn't have to go into hospital. But it did just derail me and hit me like a train wreck. 

And from listening to all of the stories and listening to your story as well, where the type of people before were heavy multitaskers, they were mentally agile, they were mentally busy, probably too busy, looking back on reflection. I think I was waiting for long covid really. I think my body was just always gonna take the hit and run with long COVID. I was just made for it.

Jackie Baxter  
for, again, on reflection, that was certainly where I was headed. If it hadn't had been COVID, then it would have been something else eventually. And that's quite a scary thought, isn't it? But yeah, I mean, that you were just describing, you know, being the person that you thought people needed you to be. 

And this is something that I've noticed as well and actually realizing that sometimes, in fact, maybe more than sometimes, I need to be the person that I need me to be, rather than the person that someone else needs me to be. And I suppose that can be a difficult thing, if you have people who are depending on you. And you know, I was lucky in some ways that I had a partner, but I didn't have kids. So I didn't have that. 

But I also had all of these other things where I was like, oh, you should be doing this, you know, pressure from work, pressure I was putting on myself, probably more than anything else. And you just feel yourself pulled in all these different directions, and you can't really do anything about it, because it's just what's happening.  

But you know, you do have kids. That must be quite a difficult thing. You know, I found it hard enough to put myself first, how did you manage that, you know, to kind of start putting yourself first when your body finally said, Dude, you got to do this now.

Peter Burt  
I would like to say that was an easy process. But that took two years I think and a lot of crash and burn. I mean, I was always quite proud of the fact, I mean, in my family setup I've been the main wage earner for a long time. It's allowed my wife Laura to look after the children at the times when they were really young. And again, I've always loved that dynamic. I loved being the action dad, I loved being the main breadwinner. That was what I brought to the table. 

And I think a lot of it stems back to childhood because my father and my grandfather was very much of the, you know, we're men, we're strong, we go out to work, we don't cry, we don't really show our emotion. And if we do, we quickly brush it off, pull our socks up because men don't cry. And that was kind of what was always drummed into me. 

And in and amongst my childhood had a couple of broken family units. So my mom got divorced a couple of times. So in and amongst that you learn to be a little bit stronger, a little bit more resilient. A little bit - I don't want to be seen because being seen is not always a good thing in a new family unit and a new family setup. So all of these coping mechanisms that I had for that time period, I thought were really good. They made me really resilient. They got me to where I am now. 

And initially when I first started getting over COVID, I tried to go back to work after about five weeks. And I started off gently so I was going for two hours a day, because that was just all I could manage, you know, go home, and I'd sleep pretty much till the next morning. And then I'd go to work and I'd maybe do three hours or four hours. 

But my coping mechanism is, you know, I'm a boss at work, if I'm not there, nobody's gonna listen to me, things are gonna fall apart. The other directors aren't gonna like that I'm not pulling my weight. It goes against my grain of, I'm a hard worker, I want to be the hardest worker in the room. Because if I'm not being the hardest worker in the room, then I'm somehow failing myself and everybody else around me. 

So that coping mechanism didn't really work very well for me at the time, because it just meant I just kept crashing and burning and crashing and burning. And I think what really drove it was last summer, I started to feel a little bit better. So I'd got to May time. And I found that I woke up one morning, and I just had a little bit of strength in my legs, and I was It's back, I've got power, again, I can do stuff. 

So me being me, which is I have power, I must exercise, because exercise is the only thing that keeps me safe and keeps me stress free and keeps me healthy. So little bit of energy, I go out and I blast it away. I fall flat on my face for a couple of days. And then have another little bit of energy, I blast myself a little bit longer. And so the cycle went on, and I got to a point where I could get on my bike for five or 10 miles. This is it. I'm gonna be fixed. 

And then one day, I woke up and it's gone. And there's just, I think only a person who's known proper fatigue, and proper illness, chronic illness can know the feeling. And I woke up and I lay there in bed, and it's gone. And that was the hardest time. I had a year and a half of getting to this point of where I thought it was back. And it just got took away again, and it absolutely destroyed me at the time. 

And I think on reflection, that's what I needed to happen. Because I think otherwise I was just going to keep crashing and burning. But I think what I really started to notice was I was crashing and burning on a daily basis. So do too much, sleep, do too much, sleep, do too much, sleep. But the big crash in the summer taught me that actually as a lifecycle, I was doing it massively in the background as well. And it just absolutely floored me at that point there. 

But yeah, going back to the earlier but I just, my whole being for me was I must get back to work as quickly as possible. I must be earning for the family or I'm not being good for the family, I'm not being good for the children. I'm not being good for the wife. I'm not showing up for myself. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so tough, isn't it. And I think if you do feel that little bit of something, a little bit of energy, a slightly better day, you know, we're so deprived of those things that we want to do that, of course, we're going to want to go do something if we feel up to doing it. And I did this all the time, over and over and over. And you know, it's the most natural thing to want to do. 

But it is also the worst thing to do, isn't it? Because as you say, then you just crash and burn and you have a load more bad days. But then you might get a little glimmer of something else. Ah, I'll go do all the things. And I think for me, one of the hardest things was holding myself back on those better days. And you know, using up maybe some of the energy, you know, doing something that gave me some joy, but not going at it 100%, you know, doing a taste or something and saving the rest of that energy to put back into the body for healing, I suppose. 

Peter Burt  
Yeah. The only way I could try to make people understand how I was feeling and it was an analogy my wife Laura came up with it. And it was because of one of our walks, we were walking back to the house and it was only a brief walk, maybe half a mile or something like that. And when the brain fog and the fatigue comes on. It was like I get drunk. My wife would have to hold my hand to stop me staggering off the curb and she'd say, it's just like you get drunk. 

And I was like, do you know what, that makes sense? You can understand that, and I understand it. So then I started to describe to everyone that had this base level. And my base level was I'd had one or two beers. So I'm in a permanent state of slightly drunk, can hold a conversation but not always going to be focused in the conversation. Will forget my words. I might forget what you're telling me at any time because my attention has wandered. 

And if I'm to do something mental, so be on a phone call or just talking to people or if I try and do a little bit of exercise and walk. And it was like I'd had another beer. And if I talk a bit more I've had another beer, if I walk a bit further, I had another beer. And I was never very good at learning how to bring the levels back down. 

So all I would do is, in my mind was Drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, get to the point of where you fall flat on your face. And then you have the most horrendous hangover for a day, one week, two weeks, a month. And that was - it just seemed like a very good way that people seem to understand that, even though they couldn't understand fatigue, they couldn't understand brain fog, they could go, Yeah, okay with me, and I've been drunk and and I lose track of a conversation when I'm drunk. 

And for some reason, that just kind of resonated with a few people. So it became an easy thing to say to people. I've had about five beers today, I'm not really in a very good place. And if I do too much, suddenly I'm going to be on 10 beers, and I'm going to fall fast asleep.

Jackie Baxter  
Brilliant. And you know what, I think if you're speaking to someone who has long COVID, or has had long COVID, or any condition that's kind of related to that, we get it. And I think that's why things like support groups, all of these things that give us validation and connection with other people who get it. I think that's important. 

But I think it's really important to be able to connect to people outside of that as well, your family, friends, work colleagues, for people who are working, you know, because it can be very easy to get that disconnect between the ill people and the non ill people. So having some way that we can communicate that, in a way that they can sort of relate to. 

And I think your beer analogy is brilliant. It does that, because like you say, everyone's had too much to drink. And they've found themselves stumbling along the pavement, not remembering where the train station is. And everyone's woken up the next morning and gone Oh, my goodness, what did I do? So people can relate to that? I think.

Peter Burt  
Definitely. And one of the things that got me in the summer months, when I had this, I'm hoping my final crash, because there was a podcast that I was listening to with you, and I forget the person, but she was talking about how you can be washed up on a beach and how you can be bashed about in the ocean, and then you get washed back up on the beach. And then you have to dust yourself off and start climbing and working. 

And that was still kicking around in my head. It was resonating, but for different reasons for me. And how I felt at the time was, I've been roughing around in the sea now for two years. And I felt like I've been spat out on this little beach in the middle of nowhere. And it was like an island. And I'm surrounded by the horrendous seas. And the reason that I got to this island was because I've recently found breathing. 

And again, it was one of your podcasts I became aware of the breathing cure and the James Nestor book. And Patrick McKeown and James Nestor and I was reading both of those books. Realizing that I have the worst breath-hold possible, I had like a bolt score of two when I first started doing it. And I was like, I can hold my breath. Of course, I can hold my breath. And then you try to and you realize I'm drowning. 

And I just started to recognize that and started to do lots of breathing exercises. So the point of when I sent me an email was like, I've got this little island, I've managed to calm myself down on. I'm only on one beer a day at the moment. And I know that the moment I do anything, I'm going to go to two beers. But I now have this little coping mechanism where I can put my headphones in. And I can do breathing for 10 minutes, and I get myself back down to one. 

So I kind of felt this analogy of I'm just stuck on this little lonely island. I'm quite happy to be there at the moment. But I don't know how to get off the island. I don't know if I want to get off the island at the moment because I spent two years in the sea. And it was a two fold thing, it was finding breath which is incredible, which I never thought I'd ever say to myself. And also, at the point of where I was probably had my biggest crash. 

I just came home from work and I just, I cried for - it must have been hours. It was just the worst time, I think, and the lowest I've ever felt. And at that time, I had both my wife Laura saying to me, you know, maybe it's time to go and talk to somebody. And I've got a really good friend at work who's also my boss. And he was saying, you know, maybe it's time to go and talk to somebody. 

And they both been saying this over a number years. My friend at work rather espeically had been saying it for a number of years. And I thought I don't need to talk to people. I've got over bigger things in my life. I'm a big strong man. I don't need somebody to tell me how to fix myself. I don't need somebody to tell me what's wrong with me. I don't need that. I can do all of this myself. 

And then, at the lowest point, I thought, yeah, you know what, now, now probably is the time to look into that. And yeah, I came across this lovely therapist called Amy. And together, I would say, we started to unpick where I was as a person and start to analyze a lot of different areas of my life really? 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think the episode that you talked about was, it was Michelle Irving, which I will put the link in the show notes for anyone wanting to work out what we're talking about. And it was interesting speaking to her, because I remember having this realization where - I think I had just recovered when I spoke to her. 

And I was going through this weird, like, I'm better, what do I do now? Which was really strange, because I thought, you know, that you recovered, and then everything was great. And it was, don't get me wrong, but it was almost like, you know, she said, Yeah, you know, physically, you're at number four, you're good. But emotionally, you're way out at sea, because you have no idea what's going on. And that really stuck with me, because I thought, yeah, you're right, I'm completely at sea, I have literally no idea what's going on. And that's a really scary place to be but either physically or emotionally, or both. 

So I think, you know, then, as you say, washing up on that beach, it's kind of just like, Okay, right, give me a minute, kind of feeling, isn't it? Where you just got to kind of take stock, and, but I am a massive fan of the breath, obviously, because that's what I'm now doing with my life. And it was, yeah, it was huge for me. 

And, you know, realizing that as you say, you know, there are things that you do, or sometimes things that you don't do, that give you more beers, to use your analogy, you know, those those beers will stack up. And sometimes there's nothing you can really do about it. And sometimes you know what caused them to stack up, and sometimes it's less obvious. 

But actually having some sort of a tool that can reduce the beers. That's a hugely powerful thing. Okay, things are not going well. Let's use this particular breathing exercise. Okay, let's reduce the beers. It's a very, very kind of powerful, sort of empowering moment, I think, isn't it to be able to do that? 

Peter Burt  
Yeah, I mean, I spent two years, I couldn't control anything about my body and my brain, it's running away. And it's like a wild horse that you just cannot jump on. If you do manage to get on, you're thrown flat on your face. And I suddenly found something, as daft as I thought it was at the time I came across it, that I have control of something for the first time in two years. I can control something about my body. 

And the thing I'm actively choosing to do, for once it's not making me fall on my face. Actually, it's having a positive benefit. And that was so empowering. It was like, it was a lightbulb moment, and the bizzarrest thing - and we talk about how things resonate with people. I'd heard in the last two years about breathing, I'd heard little things about parasympathetic systems, and dysautonomia, and dysfunctional breathing. I'd heard all these terms, but because of where I was at in my journey, I was like, I don't need that. I just need to get better so I can walk five miles, I just need to go for a run. I just need to do whatever I need to do. 

And in meeting with Amy, I mean, the bizarre thing is i met Amy last year for about 10 weeks. We had a death in the family, which upset me at the time quite a lot. And I chose to go and speak to Amy about my family and how my childhood was. And I spent 10 weeks with her and me being me, it coincided at the same time with I can now walk a little bit further. I can now go on my bike for a mile. I'm cured. I don't need Amy. I parked her. She was gone. 

Amy was gone. I'm off. I'm running. The old Peter's coming back. And then he was, until I had my biggest crash to date. And I heard you speaking about having your big final crash once on one of your podcasts and at that point, not that I realized that. That was my biggest crash to date. 

And I should have seen it coming because now looking back on it all the signs were there. I was starting to get drunker and drunker again. I was starting to find myself here tearful  at difficult conversation although I hid it really well. I was finding that to take myself out from work because mentally I wasn't functioning well. But I didn't want anybody to see that. Because that didn't fit with the narrative of who I was or who I thought I was. 

And at home as well, with my wife, we have a great relationship. And we talk a lot. But I didn't realize how much I didn't talk about certain things as well. And it wasn't till I started to speak, again, back to Amy at the lowest point I think I've ever been at. And lots of tearful sessions and lots of hard sessions, where - when you find a good therapist to talk to, they don't fix you. They don't tell me what you are, they don't tell you what you're not. They don't tell you where you're going wrong. They just somehow allow you to talk. 

And many times I'd walk and sit down in a chair and go, I've got nothing to talk about. Because that's just my defense mechanism. People aren't allowed to see me. I don't talk. And I'd just talk for a whole hour, I would be in tears, she would ask one simple question, and it would set me off. And then I'd be like, Why does that hit me so hard? Why does that resonate so deep? Just one silly little question, which if somebody asked me outside of these four walls, it wouldn't bother me at all, or not that I'm aware of, it wouldn't bother me. 

But yeah, the whole process of finding Amy, and learning to talk to somebody who's, and I think the biggest thing about it was, it's so non judgmental. And I think that's what I needed in my journey at that time, because you talk to your wife or you talk to your talk to your friend. It's almost like once you've said something, that thing is there forever. 

Whereas when you're in the confines of this room with somebody who you're slowly starting to trust, they don't judge you or they don't appear to judge you. And you can say something, and it never leaves the room. So freeing. And you could start to talk about all of these fears and anxieties that you didn't always know were there, were slowly coming up the more you find out about yourself. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, you're right. And it's yeah, it's almost like a good therapist. They don't tell you what to do. They help you to work it out yourself, I think, which I suppose is another one of those kind of empowering things. But you know, it's like you need someone there kind of poking you. Asking those difficult questions, putting you in those places where you really don't want to be, but you kind of need to be in order to work out what's going on and stuff. 

I think this was really interesting, because, you know, when I had a sort of similar moment to you, where I don't need to talk to someone, no, I don't need to talk to someone. I've got my partner, you know, I don't need to talk to someone. Oh, I need to talk to someone who's not my partner. So I can say those things. You know, and it's kind of like, oh, yeah, that seems really obvious when someone points it out to you. 

But I think that was one of the best decisions I made, was starting to speak to somebody. And I think mental health is taboo, anyway, it's getting less taboo. And I think that's good. But it's still something that people don't really want to talk about. And I think especially in chronic illness circles, it's even more taboo, because people are worried about being told, Oh, I told you it was just anxiety. You know, which it's not, you know, I'm anxious because I'm ill. 

But, you know, people are once bitten twice shy, you know. Not every doctor will gaslight you but unfortunately there are enough out there that will that people are a little bit concerned. And Dr. Jim Jackson said that untreated mental health is just as bad as untreated physical health. And I think he's right. And I think maybe what kind of resonated with me so much in your email when you sent it to me, was that on top of all of that, mental health, and being a man. This is like an extra thing on top, I think, or certainly can be.

Peter Burt  
It can feel like it. I can only speak for sort of a man perspective. And I think men of my generation and above. We're not meant to cry, you know, we're not meant to show weakness. I've got two teenage sons who, I'm very conscious that I know that that's not right. But the things that I want them to be able to talk. I want them to be open, I want them to share their opinions and not feel judged for it. 

But I think I learned through all of my conversations of Amy that the things that I want for other people and expect for other people, you know that they can talk, they can do all these things, are not the same expectations that I had on myself. And the phrase, "you're not being a good friend to yourself" - I've heard many a time. 

And I never really understood what that phrase was until Amy would sometimes say, would you expect that of your children? You know, what would you say if your children say that? Or what would you say if your wife said that? What would you say of your friends said that to you? I'd say, well, that's absolute nonsense. Of course, they should feel this way. So she said, Why are you not allowed to do that? Why are you not allowed to feel scared? 

There was many moments like that or, You need to be a better friend to yourself Peter. And that was probably the only real time I ever got given advice. Was - you need to be a good friend to yourself, you need to hold your own hand, you need to give yourself your own cuddle, which was all things that I would do for everybody else. But for me, no, that was the hardest thing, because that's not what I do. That's not what men of my generation do. We pull our socks up, we get on with it, we don't show weakness. 

And that's a hard thing to overcome. Because like you're saying, other men of my generation that I talk to, they go, Oh you just a bit stressed at work. Why don't you go and have a beer. If I took long COVID out of the equation, I wouldn't be stressed. Actually, I probably would be stressed with the work that I do. But I wouldn't be as stressed, I wouldn't be as anxious, I would be able to do fun things in my life. So not only have I got the stress of work, I've got no fun things in my life. 

At that point where I had my crash, all I was doing was just doing enough to get through the day. And then there was nothing left for my family. So I had no energy left in the evenings to spend what I felt was quality time with my son, and my wife. Would get to a weekend and I knew I just had to sleep all weekend, because otherwise, I'm not gonna get through work next week. 

And mentally, for me as a man, that was like, you're just not showing up for yourself, you're gonna have all this stigma from the whole world that you know, you're a man, we shouldn't be like this, pull your socks up, be strong. That's a hard dynamic. And that's one that took a lot of convincing me that it's okay to be okay with my feelings. And more than that, to be seen to allow people to see me upset. 

There were things that I wouldn't want to say to Laura, because I knew that if I said them, it would upset her. And my role as a husband didn't want to make my wife upset. Therefore, if I hold these things, and I didn't realize I was doing it, but if I hold these things and are hide them, you know, she's not going to be as stressed. She's not going to be worried. She's not going to be upset for me. So in trying to protect everybody around me, I was doing the opposite. I just didn't realize it. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, and it makes me think of the analogy of the oxygen masks and the aeroplane. And they always say, put your own oxygen mask on before you put anyone else's on. And like, I always used to think that that sounded the wrong way around. It was like, Well, surely, if there's someone there that can't get their mask on, then you should be helping them. You know, you can do yours afterwards. And then it wasn't until after I was unwell, that I realized, Oh, well, if you don't have your mask on, you're in no position to help anybody else. 

And I think that's entirely relevant here. And I do the same. I put everybody else first, you know, oh, well, you know, I'll do this because it'll make it easier for someone else, you know. Always been a people pleaser, although I wouldn't have realized it until now. And, you know, yeah, of course, you want to make life easier for your wife, of course you want to show up for your kids, you need to do your job, you need to do all these things. But actually, you need to look after number one first because otherwise you can't be there for anybody else who needs you.

Peter Burt  
It is definitely, you don't realize it. And I think without being able to talk to Amy and again, it's just that non judgmental setting where you can say the most outlandish thing and you know it's not gonna go anywhere. You can say, Amy, I am the worst husband. I am the worst father. I'm just useless. I can't do the things I want to do. Who's gonna love a man like that? All of these fears and anxieties. I'm going to be ill forever. How do I cope with that? 

That was where my thought process was at the time. I'm a rubbish husband. I'm rubbish at work. I'm a rubbish dad. I'm a rubbish man. And mentally get your head around all of those aspects was was really difficult and really challenging. And when I really did hit, I'm gonna say was rock bottom because I'm hoping that's what it was at the time. But when I did hit rock bottom, I suddenly became aware of a lot of things. So one was breathing. One bizarrely was your podcast. 

And Level One was, I started to hear things, it was almost like I was hearing things in the back of my mind going, there must be a podcast on long COVID, there must be something about breathing. It was just these little niggly things in the back of my head, I'm gonna have a little look at that. And Amy, when we've been talking about it, we kind of come to the assumption that these things were always there. It's just I wasn't ready for them. 

So I would maybe see that there was a long COVID podcast. But I didn't want to join into that. I would see that there was something about breathing out there. I didn't want to join into that, because I wasn't ready to hear it at that point. And I think that was probably the biggest thing for me, I think I needed to hit rock bottom to suddenly go, Do you know what? I'm not fixing myself here. I think all of my coping mechanisms are just making me worse. And I know if I pick myself up I'll slowly get a little bit better. And I'm gonna probably have a harder crash in six months time. 

And it was just, it was like a light bulb moment. And I had to be flat on the floor to realize that I needed to talk to someone. I needed to look out there to help. I think I needed to admit I needed help. And I don't think I was ready to admit that. Not outwardly. I think I've made it to myself for a while. But I think the moment you say to somebody, I need a little bit of help. You can't take it back. And I think I was always too scared to be able to do that. 

Again, it goes back to man of my generation can't admit that I have feelings, can't admit that, Do you know what? Sometimes I cry because I am crying for the person that I didn't realize at the time that I once was. And I came to understand that I've actually grieving this person. I was grieving the person who I thought was amazing. And it's only really now I can sit here. And it's only really happened recently as well. 

I stopped the grief for that man that I used to be because actually, I think there's elements of that man that I love. And I think helped me to get to where I am, made me strong, made me resilient. But if someone said to me now, we're gonna move forward, and you can go back and you can be this man. I don't think I'd want to be because I think I was too stressed. I think I was in a place where I didn't understand me, I didn't understand my feelings. 

And my coping mechanisms, were only going to get me so far, because if it wasn't long COVID I think something else was probably gonna happen to me. And it was the first time ever, I went, I don't really want to be him anymore. I think I want to keep some of the aspects, I'd like to be fit again like that one day. That's one thing I'd quite like, but I don't want a lot of the baggage I was carrying mentally and physically at that time. And that again, that was quite freeing to admit to myself, and to actually say out loud to other people as well. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, it's scary, I think to sort of start thinking those things. And then to say them out loud is like a whole different, you know, because it's putting it out there, isn't it? You know, I can relate to so much of what you just said, you know, you wanted nothing more than to be the person you were before. And the fact that you couldn't be that person was absolutely devastating. 

So you fight, sort of tooth and nail to be that person. But in doing so you make things worse, because the coping mechanisms that that person had, were not the ones that you need right now. And like you say, admitting, again it almost feels like something naughty or something dirty, doesn't it, to admit that you need help. And it shouldn't be, it should be something that we're able to do a lot more. 

But obviously, it wasn't something that came naturally to you, or easily to you anyway. It certainly wasn't something that came easily to me because I've always been a Just get on with it, because that's the message I've had ever since childhood. And you know, I think it's very similar for lots of other people. 

It is very, very difficult to sort of make that make that first step almost. But once you do, certainly for me, and it sounds like you've had a similar experience, once you do kind of put your hand up and say I need some help. It is very kind of liberating. I think, you know, it's like it's out there now. 

Peter Burt  
And I guess that goes back to that You need that person who's non judgmental and is trapped in these four walls. You need to find that for yourself. It really is freeing, but yeah, I'd come out of there blurting some horrendous stuff out and then feeling so childish. Like what a childish thought, why would I? Why would I think such a thing? 

And I've come to learn that we've all got this chorus in us of our old self and our different age groups. And the one thing I've been trying to do is when when I have a feeling of Just that's a really childish thing to think Peter. I'm like, stop and go. Okay, what sort of age do I feel at the moment I said that? 

And you can kind of almost narrow it down to a time period in your life where you go, Okay, was it when I was in my 20s? Yeah, I did have that feeling. But it was there. So it was it when I was in my teens? Was it was wasn't from the age of around 10. And you can sometimes narrow it down to a time period. And you remember where you were and what you were doing and what was going on around you at about period, and go, I can understand why. Why I'm feeling those things, why it now hits me like it does. 

And it's all about self reflection. And you can do again, in those safe four walls that you can talk about this. And no one's ever going to repeat it to. The fear always is if you say something to, to your partner or your wife or a friend, in two years time, that thing could be spoken about. And in two years time, you might not want to talk about those things. Because that was a different time period. And you're embarrassed about the thing you said. 

It's only through therapy with Amy and talking about all these things and learning about myself. But I realized that actually, if you do say it to the people you love, and you trust them, it's not a bad feeling. Because I've always prided myself on being a really good listener. I want people to come and talk to me, people have a problem. Talk to me. I love other people's problems. I'll listen to them all day long. 

I never quite realize how much sometimes I take on the emotion. And I hold on to their emotion. And that was not something I ever realized I did until my bucket is overflowing with my own emotion that actually, somebody else's emotion also sets me off. And I'm like, why am I? And it was just because I didn't have that resilience anymore to - my bucket was overflowing, was another phrase that I came to understand quite quickly. 

And yeah, I tend to be filling my bucket from other people's buckets. I was like come and empty your bucket into mine. It's okay. Yeah, I suddenly realized that it was great that I want to listen, and I want to help. But I had to try to learn not to be filling my own bucket up from their bucket. And also vice versa. 

Because subconsciously, I think I knew that was happening. I knew if I went to my wife and said, Laura, You know what, I'm really scared about the future. What if this is me as a man forever more? I didn't want the answer. And also didn't want to pour my bucket into her bucket. For want of a better description. I don't want her to own my problems, my issues. 

And it was listening to you and your partner, when he was questioning you. I suddenly realized that, wow, you are so open. Like on a real, I feel broken fundamental level, that as much as I talk to Laura. And as much as I talk to my friends, I was never that open. And I was like, wow, that's a place I think I need to try and get to. 

Jackie Baxter  
It's really interesting, isn't it. And again, it comes back to our own boundaries and what we can handle. And that's going to be different for each individual person and each individual situation. And any different day if we're talking about long COVID because no two days are ever the same. But absolutely, you know, being open and being able to talk about these things, but also knowing when it's too much to put on to someone else. 

And vice versa. Knowing when someone else is putting too much onto you. And when you need to say actually, no, I'm not going to be your person today. I might be able to be your person another time. But right now, I don't have any bucket left. It's hard, because I think it's important to talk. But how do you know how much of someone else's bucket there is. 

And I think something that my partner and I have found quite useful. Not so much in this sense. But more in the fact that I talk a lot. I come off a zoom call, I need to go tell someone about it. Oh I met this really great person and this amazing thing happened and they said this and it was great. And then we went and talked about this thing and you know, I'm starting to get tired just thinking about all the things that I do. 

And sometimes he's really interested and he's happy to let me just kind of talk myself out. And sometimes he just wants quiet. He wants me to not do that. And I found it really difficult to work out when I could do that, and when I couldn't. Because either I would go and do it and he'd be fine. Or I'd get a couple of minutes in, and he just goes STOP. And I would get incredibly defensive because I was unwell. And I didn't take rejection very well, probably even before I was unwell, if I'm completely honest. But you know, he would sort of say something in a way that made me just feel so much worse. 

So it was like, how do we deal with this? So we're not perfect at it. But I'm better at when I come off a zoom call. And I'm like, I ask him if he can handle it. It's like, can I talk at you? And often he's like, Sure, go for it. And some of the time, he's like, I need quiet time. And I'm getting better at being able to respect that. So it's almost like you need some sort of way of saying, Can I or can't I? Whether it's kind of like deep dark soul searching sort of honesty, or I just need a wall to talk at.

Peter Burt  
One of the things I always struggled with, I would say to one of my sons, tomorrow, why don't we go and do such and such. And they would look all excited about whatever the thing may be, it might be let's go down the coast, and we'll have a little wander, we'll eat some chips, anything. You'd wake up, and that morning was the morning when you need, you know, you shouldn't get out of bed. 

And for two years, you'd get out of bed and you'd see them " are we still going to the coast today to eat some chips?" And you know that you probably shouldn't do it because you've just got no energy. And you know, tomorrow you're going to be even worse if you do it. But the little look on the faces of the people that you love, when they can sense that you're not in a good place. They don't quite know to say, You know what, Dad, Let's not do that today. And you can't ever expect that with your children anyway. 

And because I'm an absolute people pleaser when it comes to my children and my wife, I would just do it. And I would fall flat on my face. And there's times I remember walking down the beach at Hunstanton before we would get chips. And there's a cafe at the end of one of the beaches, and I would sit on a rock. 

And this happened on New Year's Day. My wife's parents were there. They're both in their 70. And I felt like I was 170. I was 20 paces behind and I couldn't keep up. I could have just fallen flat on my face on the sand. But me being me, I didn't want to let anyone down. I didn't want to let my children down. I didn't want to upset my wife because she planned something with the parents. I'm Peter. It's what I've always done, I work through rubbish, I can just do it. 

And we got to the end and I said, Why don't you go get a cup of tea and I'll just sit on this rock. Half an hour later, I woke up on this rock. And they were all around me. They both had two cups of tea. I'd had one cup of tea, that'd gone cold and I'd got another one sitting there. And I was like, What's going on? She went, You just fell asleep on the walk and we didn't have the heart. 

And that little look from your children, and you do not want to upset them. I don't want to upset my wife by admitting that I'm ill, I can't do these things. Because you ultimately you really want to do it. But I think for me, I just I always felt less of a man for not being able to do something. Forgetting long COVID and forgetting that I was ill. On a cellular level it just felt like I'm not a man if I can't do these things. I'm not a man if I can't take that phone call at work. What sort of man am I if I can't take my children even for walk? 

That comes back to that, I just needed to learn to ask for help myself. Because Amy would say to me, What if Laura was saying, You know I've got a headache today, I don't fancy going for a walk. Would you make her? No, of course I wouldn't do. I'd say Well, let's watch a film, let's snuggle up on the sofa. Let's do something else. 

And it was in one of the sessions where she turned around to me and she said, you're denying people the opportunity to do that for you. Can't compute that sentence. What do you mean? She said, Well, you love helping people, you love listening to people. If somebody's ill, you love to snuggle up on the sofa with them. But you deny them the fundamental opportunity to do that back to you. You're denying your wife the opportunity to say, come and snuggle beside me or put my arm around you. 

It was another one of those sessions where I lost it and was crying. And I thought, I've never looked at it that way. Again, that was quite an eye opener for me. The thing I love to do for my family, I was denying that they could do that for me. And that was quite a powerful realization really. Again, born out of, Me man, me not cry,

Jackie Baxter  
that's beautiful. I love that. And again, that it's okay to not be able to do things, you know, we have this kind of drive, don't we, that in order to be successful, in order to be worthy, we have to be doing things that we've always been told we need to do. The things society tells us we need to do, the things that we tell ourselves that we need to do. And actually, we don't, but it can be difficult to realize that. And that certainly was something that happened for me, you know that, to realize that I was worthy as a person, whatever else happened,

Peter Burt  
You're never going to know that for yourself. When you come to realize these little snippets about your own psychology, and it hits hard. It's probably not a good life lesson for my children as men that actually, Dad doesn't share his feelings. And Dad's not willing to say, I need help here, guys.

Jackie Baxter  
One of my big lessons is that I need to say no to things because I've always, I've never said no to anything in my life until this happened. So you know, I started saying no to things. But actually, as you've just demonstrated, that actually sometimes we need to say yes to things, you know, things that we might not want to say yes to. But actually, yeah, someone's offered to do something for me. Yes, that's probably a good yes moment. 

Peter Burt  
Not everybody can afford to go to therapy. But maybe they might be able to find someone who they don't feel judgment from, and say to them, You know what, guys? I just need to talk and I really don't want you to fix me, because that's the worst thing. You never want to say anything deep to somebody if you think they're going to try and fix you. I just want to talk, please ask me a question. Just don't give me any advice. Because that's the last thing that any of us wants in that time period, and you just want to talk. 

And I think that's kind of the message I wanted to get out there really, that You know, we're men. We can talk and we do cry. And it's a good thing, like we're crying for a reason. And if we're not admitting it to people, then we're not admitting it to ourselves. 

Jackie Baxter  
I think everyone finds it hard to talk about things. And I think you know, certain people, men are definitely being one of those groups, can find it even harder. So thank you so much for putting yourself out there and for coming along and chatting to me today and sharing everything that you have. Thank you so much.

Peter Burt  
It's been cleansing

Transcribed by https://otter.ai