137 - Lorrie Rivers - What is EFT Tapping and how can it help me?

Episode 137 of the Long Covid Podcast welcomes back Lorrie Rivers to chat about EFT tapping, a technique that she's personally had good results with and now uses with her clients. EFT stands for Emotional Freedom Technique and can be a great way of gently helping us out emotionally, which can be difficult with health challenges such as Long Covid. But as Lorrie shares, it actually can do more than that too.

We dive into some of the science behind it, as well as using me as a guinea pig for an example!

EFT tapping MRI amygdala study

EFT trauma, PTSD, food cravings study

Links to work with Lorrie:
To register for the Nervous System Reset for Long Covid and ME/CFS with Tapping course (you’ll get free access to our next LIVE session when you sign up): https://living-from-inspiration.mykajabi.com/tapping-for-long-covid-and-me-cfs-fm

Our H*E*A*L* Advanced Recovery Program for Long Covid and ME/CFS This is a holistic approach to healing where we address hidden infections and toxins with supplement protocols and heal by addressing physical and energetic root cause of illness:   https://lorrieriversholistic.com/heal/ 

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  
Hello and welcome to this episode of the long covid Podcast. I am so excited to have Lorrie Rivers back. So Lorrie featured on the podcast last year sometime, I think, and we dived a load into all sorts of stuff. 

Jackie Baxter  
But today we are going to be talking about EFT Meridian Tapping, amongst other things. I have no idea what this means. I am as in the dark as everybody else, so I'm really excited to dive into this. So a very warm welcome back, Lorrie. It's lovely to see you.

Lorrie Rivers  
Thank you, Jackie, always, always a pleasure. Yeah. So I'll just tell you a little bit of background about me and and why I'm here. 

Jackie Baxter  
absolutely 

Lorrie Rivers  
so in my early 20s, I developed severe MECFS, so myalgic encephalomyelitis, chronic fatigue syndrome, and it kept me mostly bed bound for about eight years. And within that time, it was back when the internet was new, so there wasn't a lot of information out there. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So I would, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably familiar with pacing. I had no idea about pacing, so I would go and on my good days, I would go and try to, you know, take a walk or whatever, and then I would end up being in bed for the next several weeks. So it did take me those eight years or so to get out of it. 

Lorrie Rivers  
But one of the things that I ran across relatively early in that experience was this thing called EFT Tapping. EFT Meridian tapping. And EFT stands for emotional freedom technique. And I think at that point they called it energy medicine, or it's an energetic practice, right? And at that point, I was literally trying anything and everything that I possibly could. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And this was one of those things that I ran across on the internet. I was like, energy healing, whatever, but I'm going to try it out, because it was free to do at that point. And so I did this process that I'm actually going to take you through as well. And I did it a couple of times, and I started to feel a little bit teeny, little bit better emotionally when I did it. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And at that point, I was absolutely miserable. I even aside from the emotional aspect of of, you know, having just gotten out of college and starting on my career, and then getting smacked down, you know, like you know so well as well Jackie. And then, like, watching my classmates from College be on television, and that's what I was pursuing at that point, was acting. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So I would be sitting down watching television, trying to distract myself from what was going on in my body, and I'd be like, oh, there's that person that you know I'm friends with from college, and there's that person and I'm stuck at home. So even aside from that, just the physical aspect of of the emotions. And and I experienced a great deal of pain, so I spent a lot of my time bawling crying. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And so to have even that small amount of emotional shift was a big deal. And so I was like, Okay, there's obviously something to this. It's totally woo, woo. But, you know, at that, at that point, because I was so new to to that, but I was like, hey, if it works, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try it. So I delved deeper into it, and actually got accredited as an EFT practitioner.

Jackie Baxter  
And, you know, it's so interesting, isn't it? I mean, you know, you mentioned that you didn't have access to so much internet, which meant that, you know, finding information was hard. I mean, it's hard enough now, you know, which is part of the reason why I want to do the podcast. I think it's important is to help get that information out there, because even with there being so much information, it is still very hard to find what you need. 

Jackie Baxter  
But I love what you were saying about the you know, you get desperate, don't you, you know, you get to a point where you're like, I've been sick for however long. I haven't really found anything that helps, or if I have, it hasn't made that much difference. And I saw an interview recently with Raelan Agle, and she described it as the "I would eat eyeballs" moment, where you get to the point where you would do literally anything. You would literally try anything if you thought it might help. 

Jackie Baxter  
And it's almost like once you get to that point, you do start to think out of the box a little bit. And I remember thinking breathing sounded Woo, woo, like breathing. That's ridiculous. And, you know, it's obviously had so much of an impact on me that it's helped me with my recovery, that that's actually now what I'm doing. 

Jackie Baxter  
So it's amazing what you will find when you really look, and the things that you're open to trying, and these things that you know seem really unbelievable when you first maybe come across them, but once you're kind of open enough to maybe trying some of them. It's amazing what can actually help, isn't it?

Lorrie Rivers  
Absolutely and along the same lines, I actually tried an earthworm supplement. So I literally ate worms. 

Jackie Baxter  
So you practically did eat eyeballs, 

Lorrie Rivers  
exactly, yeah, yeah. So I love that analogy, because you do get to that point. But I feel so lucky that I ran across the the EFT tapping, and I did, you know, so I actually started coaching people, even in those last couple of years where I was still pretty sick, but I wasn't bed bound like I was before. So I started coaching people in the EFT tapping to help out with the emotional issues. And sometimes, a lot of times, it'll actually shift the symptoms as well. And we'll talk about that in a bit here. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So I've been coaching people with chronic fatigue syndrome and now with long covid For for over 20 years now. And my current approach is to use the EFT tapping to help out with the nervous system and with emotions, because we know how important that is. 

Lorrie Rivers  
But I also find, you know, personally over the years, with clients and with my own experience that we also have to address some, you know, the the underlying physical root causes that most people with these illnesses deal with. And I think that's what you and I talked about last time, was the things like parasites, Lyme, EBV, things like that. So so we address all these things in in what I teach. 

Lorrie Rivers  
But the EFT is such a huge thing for people, because it gives you relief and you can do it yourself. It doesn't have to be me doing it. It's super easy to learn.

Jackie Baxter  
I think there's a huge amount of power in having some tools that you can do. You know, there are some things that you have to go to a practitioner for, like, I don't think you can do acupuncture on yourself, or massage really on yourself, but there are so many things that you can do. 

Jackie Baxter  
And I think the emotional aspect of this cannot be underestimated, you know, the sort of, yeah, emotional, mental health side of it. You know, I go on about this all the time because it is so important, you know, of course, when you're struggling with something that is a physical illness, you are going to have mental health and emotional side effects like that is kind of obvious, really, when you think about it. 

Jackie Baxter  
And that is something that we can do, because then they kind of trigger off everything else as well. You know that everything is related. So, yeah, what would be really cool to dive into here is how it works. Like, I'm really curious about this. So, yeah, give me science.

Lorrie Rivers  
Yeah, absolutely. So actually, it is kind of like doing acupuncture on yourself. I'll not go into the history too much, because then we'll be here forever. But basically, there was a psychiatrist who had a patient that just wasn't shifting. This was back in the like the 60s, I think, and he had tried everything, I think it was a severe phobia of water. So he ran across these meridian points, these these energetic acupressure points on the body, and correlated like, you know, certain points correlate to different organs in the body. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And this client of his said, yeah, when I think about water and when I experience this phobia, I experience it in my stomach. It's in my stomach. And so he went, you know what? We've tried everything else. Let me just see about stimulating this particular acupressure point for her. So they did that. I don't know that it was even tapping at that point. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And she, for some reason, they were in a maybe it was at a college or something, but they were in a place where there was a swimming pool close by. She got up and, like, ran to the swimming pool. And he was like, Wait, it's too soon. Don't go to the swimming pool yet. You know, he was afraid that she was going to jump in, and she didn't know how to swim, or anything. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So he ran after her, and she got to the the edge of the pool, and she sat down and put her legs in, and she was fine, whereas before, she wasn't even able to get close to the swim, I mean, to even enter the building that the swimming pool was in. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And so he went, Whoa, what is happening here? And he's the one who developed. His name's Dr, I think it's Roger Callahan. And from what he did, this guy named Gary Craig ended up taking that technique that Callahan had originated and developing it into a simpler approach and a simpler system. And that's what we now call EFT tapping. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And I like to add in the the word meridian, because you are tapping on these acupressure points, these meridians. And so the really cool thing, though, is that they've done a lot of studies on the efficacy of EFT tapping on the nervous system. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And, you know, they're all of these brain retraining programs popping up everywhere now, which, you know, I don't want to dis brain retraining. But what I've found with most of those programs, not all of them, but with most of them, is that it's a very difficult approach, because you're trying to convince your mind that you're okay when you're not. Which actually ends up causing more stress to the body. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So those programs do work well for some people, but they're actually quite harmful when they take that approach for a lot of people. I have a lot of students come to me in my HEAL program, who have been through a program like that and and they're traumatized from it honestly. Because trying to make the brain go somewhere that doesn't feel truthful to you. It, it actually kicks the nervous system up into a sympathetic state, into a fight, flight freeze state. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So cool thing about EFT meridian tapping is that you're not trying to convince yourself of anything. You actually tap on these points as you're talking about or feeling the negative stuff that you're experiencing. And what this does is it literally tells the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that triggers the fight, flight, freeze, all that stuff, response, right? The sympathetic response. It tells the amygdala that it's actually okay. 

Lorrie Rivers  
It's okay to feel these feelings. It's okay that you're experiencing what you're experiencing. And over time, the amygdala, when you run across these, either if it's a trigger or these stressors or whatever, the amygdala no longer translates it as a danger. And so literally, you can see MRI, MRI results that they've done with before tapping where the amygdala is all lit up and after doing, I don't know, one or two tapping sessions, and the amygdala is not lit up anymore. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So we're not trying to force the mind into retraining. It happens naturally. So what we do is we tap on the negative first, and then we slowly start to tap in the positive, but not before you're ready. 

Jackie Baxter  
That is so cool. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Yeah, right, and it's this beautiful, elegant, simple way of retraining the brain and taking the nervous system from that fight, flight freeze, into the parasympathetic, into the Rest Digest. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And there are tons of studies out there about the effectiveness of it for people with anxiety, with PTSD, with food cravings, with just all of these different things. And what we find is that we can tap on symptoms as well. And a lot of times, you know, the person will find relief by tapping on the symptoms.

Jackie Baxter  
It's just so cool, because it sounds incredibly validating, where you. Saying, you know, I get that you feel this, it's okay to be feeling this. You know, there's no "this is the wrong thing to be feeling," which is a ridiculous thing to say anyway. But, you know, some people will be told, or will think that. So it's very validating, but also allowing yourself to feel those emotions. 

Jackie Baxter  
I think, you know, a lot of us, and I would include myself in this, you know, the very British, keep calm, carry on. You don't show emotions. You keep them down. You know, you shouldn't cry. You shouldn't whatever it is, you know. So we keep these emotions kind of repressed, and that's not healthy. You know, we need to be able to feel our emotions. But we also need to be able to feel them and process them, kind of in a way that helps us to feel safe, don't we? So it sounds like this can be very cool.

Lorrie Rivers  
Absolutely, one of my clients who's actually in Scotland, yeah, so he's ill to the point that he's not able to do anything at all, so his mother is taking the course for him. And we were doing the tapping together. And what his mother said, because he's not able to talk very much either, and what his mother said is, I can see what a relief it is to him to be able to acknowledge what's going on in his head that he's not able to talk about. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And I've heard the same thing from so many of my students that you know, this thing of it's just such a relief to be able to acknowledge how I'm actually feeling, rather than trying to keep calm and carry on. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And because, you know, to a certain degree, to get through your day and your life, when you have an illness like this, you kind of do have to suck it up sometimes. I'm not saying that that's a good thing, but you know, in order to get through your day, like I remember that. There were just times where I was like, Alright, I actually have to ignore what's going on in my body right now or I won't be able to function. 

Lorrie Rivers  
But you're exactly right. We need to be able to allow ourselves to feel what we're feeling. And it's also super helpful to start to recognize the kinds of thought patterns that we're having and how detrimental they are, but being able to recognize that without judgment. And so what happens is that as you're tapping, because of this mechanism of how it interacts with the body and with the brain, it starts to lessen the charge on the emotions and also on the thoughts. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So you start to find that as you're doing the tapping, that your thoughts actually start to change after a little bit. So let's say that you're starting out with a thought of, oh my god, there are horrible things happening in my body right now, and I feel like I'm dying from the inside out, right? I remember that feeling, that thought pattern, very well. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And what happens after a while of you focusing on that thought and feeling the feelings, the fear and whatever it is that goes along with that. That it starts to shift, and new thoughts start to come in of something like, maybe I'm not dying right this second. Maybe something else is going on. I don't know what, but...so it starts to gradually kind of shift on its own, which is super powerful. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And you know, you brought up the not allowing ourselves to feel our feelings, and how detrimental that is to our mental and physical health. And I completely agree. I was talking with a client recently who had just finished with one of these other brain retraining courses. And he said, Yeah, we were being taught that if we felt anxious, we should push that away and focus on something else. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And I just, oh, it just hurts me to hear that, because that's one of the things that can get us in trouble, physically and emotionally, even just to begin with. I know that personally, I was emotionally just oblivious to what was going on inside of me up until I got sick. So that was one of the gifts of getting sick for me, is that I had to get in touch with what I was feeling, 

Jackie Baxter  
and I think when we were unwell, I don't know if it's - it's partly to do with the nervous system, I'm sure, because everything is. But also, you know, our diaphragm helps to regulate emotions, and many people with long term illnesses are not using their diaphragm correctly. And this is something I'm starting to understand more and more as I see it in people. 

Jackie Baxter  
So it's like, not only are we trying to repress emotions, because that's what a lot of us do, you know, some maybe more than others, but you know, I think we all do it to some extent. But also we've got all of these really difficult emotions flying around in our bodies because we're sick. Plus we can't regulate them because our nervous systems are all wonky. 

Jackie Baxter  
So it's kind of like this, like, double whammy, isn't it, where you have all of this stuff that actually you sort of can't handle. And then when we can't handle our emotions, when we can't regulate them, we either repress them more, or they explode out of us in like, you know, really difficult ways. And then actually, you know, that can all kind of play into symptoms and make symptoms that are already horrible even worse. 

Jackie Baxter  
So it kind of goes to show, doesn't it? Why actually learning to kind of handle our emotions, in whatever way we can, is actually super important. But it also feels like this is something that will be important beyond long covid, and this is something that I'm starting to learn more and more as I've come out the other end of it, as I'm starting to learn more about who I am now, what life is now, and that once you come out the end of Long covid, that life isn't not stressful. You know, life is super stressful, like everything about Life is stressful. And you know, you do have emotions and things that come up. 

Jackie Baxter  
And, you know, learning these tools while we're ill, we learn them out of necessity, don't we, I think, but actually, they're Tools for Life. You know, breathing is a tool for life. It sounds like this Tapping will be something that could be really, really useful beyond. Because we don't stop having emotions and stress just because we get well, as much as that would be really lovely, 

Lorrie Rivers  
absolutely, so I sometimes work with clients on success or relationships or, you know, people who aren't sick, and I use this EFT Meridian tapping on a daily basis myself and I'm no longer ill. So I completely agree with you. And you know, it's interesting the way that breathing and the EFT Meridian tapping actually work together. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Breathing is, of course, an excellent, beautiful way to get to the nervous system and make, you know, those changes that we want to make as well. And then there are times when breathing is the the easiest way to do that. And then there are also times where it's not as accessible. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And what I find is that the EFT tapping, because it's the same thing over and over again, and I'll explain that in just a bit, and maybe we can do a tapping meditation. Sometimes it's easier for people to do the tapping, and then what happens is the breathing starts to regulate itself, and then they can go into an actual some actual breath work from there. So I think they're both so important as far as healing and as far as dealing with just life period, like you were saying, yeah. 

Jackie Baxter  
And I think as well, like, I'm a huge fan of stacking stuff, you know, making things work together. So, you know, there's all sorts of different modalities and strategies and whatever you want to call them. And I would always say breathing is such a foundation, but that doesn't mean that it's the only thing you know. You could do a breathing exercise whilst also putting your hand on your heart, you know, that's such a strong signal of safety to do that. And I always encourage people to do that, if it helps them, you know. 

Jackie Baxter  
And I don't know. I guess maybe we'll find out in the next wee while. Does tapping work with breathing? Does tapping work with other things? Because I don't think it has to be either or. Why can't we make things work together, and actually, in some ways, using them together possibly could be more powerful sometimes. So I'm super excited to learn more about this. 

Jackie Baxter  
Do you want to explain a little bit about how practically does this work? And then maybe you can take us into an example? 

Lorrie Rivers  
Absolutely. So what you do to begin with is to identify what it is that's, you know, causing you problems, or what it is that you want or what symptom it is that you're dealing with. And another beautiful thing about this is that you can use it on anything and everything, whether you have a goal or whether you're experiencing anxiety, or whether you have a symptom, or we do also work with past trauma. You know, a lot of times that informs getting sick. You know, it can be a contributor to getting ill. So we use it on anything. 

Lorrie Rivers  
But what you do is you write that down, whatever that subject is. So let's say that you're going to do some tapping on a symptom. Let's say that you're feeling some brain fog, so you write down that symptom, and then you rate it on a scale of zero to 10. 10 is the most negatively intense. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And then you identify what emotions go along with that brain fog. So in this case, maybe you're feeling some sadness because you feel like you've lost your mind capacity, or maybe you're just feeling frustrated, or maybe it's a combination, and then you write those down as well and rate those on a scale of zero to 10. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Now you don't have to do the rating, but I do recommend it, because that way you can compare how you feel afterwards and see if it's best for you to keep on with the tapping, or whether you feel like you've gotten it down to a place that feels good to you. We love to get whatever it is that we're working on down to a zero or a one, that's, you know, beautiful. And then once you've done that, you start with the tapping. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Now I have a lot of pre recorded meditations that. So I have a whole course that is for long covid and MECFS and so that has tapping meditations that address a lot of the things that people are dealing with. So that's pretty specific. And when you start off, it's usually easier to do it along with the recordings. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And you'll find tons of these recordings on YouTube, not just from me, but from lots of other people. You can just search on YouTube for EFT tapping meditation or or EFT tapping and you'll find these. So it is easier to do it with a guided meditation to begin with. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And what you do is you start by tapping on the side of the hand. This is called the karate chop point, and you repeat some phrases. Now you're going to do this three times on the karate chop point, and I'm going to guide you through this so you don't have to remember any of this. Yeah. And for those of you who are listening same thing,. And I'll try to do - I usually do it with the video so that people can see where I'm tapping. But I'm going to do my best to describe that. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And then another thing to note before we get started with it, is that if you're in a place today where you feel like actually doing the physical tapping is going to cause you a crash or cause you post exertional malaise. You can actually just imagine that you're doing it, and it works just as well. I had two paraplegic clients many years ago, and they both got beautiful results by just imagining it. Right? 

Lorrie Rivers  
So we start off on the side of the hand, and we do three statements that involve, basically, it's kind of clearing the energy system and focusing on what it is that you're going to be tapping on. And then you're going to tap on different points, on the face and the chest, under the arm and the top of the head. And again, I'll take you through those as we're actually doing this. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And these are those meridian points, right? I mean, the side of the hand is a meridian point as well, but these are the meridian points that we're addressing. And you're going to repeat some phrases that I'm going to say for you. And you keep on with this process, either, you know, of course, until the end of the meditation, and then you re-rate your rating and see where you are. And then either do the meditation again, if you want to, or, you know, come back to it later. 

Lorrie Rivers  
I do recommend doing this on a daily basis, preferably, like two times a day, you know, more if you want to, less if, because for some people who are super sensitive, you might want to do it every other day to begin with, just to see how you respond to it. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Some of the responses, some of the physical responses that you might experience. Some people yawn, some people burp. Have one client who just burps incessantly once we start doing the tapping, it's hilarious, but then we're both like, Oh, yay. But it's it's funny. And then you might also feel afterwards, typically you feel relief. Sometimes you might feel super sleepy. It might be a great time for a nap. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And occasionally, it doesn't happen too terribly often, but sometimes you can get even more stirred up, right? You might feel even more emotional. That's a really good sign. That means that you have been pushing things away for a little while, and that they are starting to come up now, and that's what we want. So shall we do it? 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, absolutely. Now, is this something that's safe to do if you're - I'm just thinking anyone who might be listening, who might be driving, for example. Is this something where they should maybe pull in at this moment?

Lorrie Rivers  
Absolutely, yes. That's a good point. Once you get really good at it, you can do it while you're driving, people are going to look at you like you're crazy. I do it. I do it all the time, because you can do it with one hand. But yeah, definitely to begin that's a great point. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Also, if you have severe PTSD, then you're probably going to want to work with an EFT practitioner, because it can unlock some things that can feel overwhelming, so just keeping that in mind as well. If you want to, if you want to just do some surface kind of tapping, then that should be okay,

Jackie Baxter  
right. Let's do it. Let's see if I fall asleep. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Okay, cool, yeah, 

Jackie Baxter  
and if I do, you'll have to finish up the interview. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Okay, we're all pros here, yeah. So why don't we tap on something where you'll feel a difference. And the other super cool thing about this is that for those of you who are listening to this right now, you can tap along. I highly recommend that you tap along, but you identify something that you want to tap on. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And by doing the tapping with us, even though it's not specifically on your subject, your topic that you want to tap on, your issue, you will still gain benefit. It's called borrowed benefits, and it's spectacular, and it's one of the I mean, I have so many favorite things about this, but it's, yeah, it's amazing. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So Jackie, because you are, like, so solid and doing so well, I know that if we just tap on, like, generalized anxiety, it's not really going to do much for you. So I was thinking, would it be okay with you if we tap on the feelings around the concert that you did recently.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, sure, let's do this. Because, yeah, there was a lot of anxiety around that. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Yeah, yeah. So Jackie and I talked earlier about a concert that she did, and she was fine with the playing, the music part of it, but the people not as comfortable, which I totally understand, 

Jackie Baxter  
yeah, 

Lorrie Rivers  
yeah. So why don't you go ahead and write down people at the concert or whatever it is that will... Oh, yeah, I'm putting you on the spot here in a lot of ways.

Jackie Baxter  
This is great. This is like, I'm a guinea pig. I love this. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Yeah. So writing that phrase down, and for those of you who are listening, whatever it is that you'd like to work on, writing that phrase down for yourself. You know this is a great exercise, actually, maybe also thinking about a time where you felt anxiety about being around other people. I think that's a great subject for a lot of people.

Lorrie Rivers  
And especially if you're dealing with these illnesses, because you know that you there can be serious ramifications from from being around people when you're uncomfortable with it. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So what would you rate the negative charge on that memory when you think about being around people like that on a scale zero to 10. 10 is the most negatively intense.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I'd say quite high. I was pretty uncomfortable. So more discomfort is a higher number, 

Lorrie Rivers  
right 

Jackie Baxter  
So, yeah, maybe an eight or something.

Lorrie Rivers  
Perfect, great. So go ahead and write that down, and you'll write yours down as well. And then what's the main emotion that came along with that?

Jackie Baxter  
It's that ball in your stomach, the ball in the stomach and the shoulders come forwards, and it makes me want to go into myself and run away screaming. I'm not sure what emotion that actually is 

Lorrie Rivers  
beautiful. Actually, if you want to write that down, ball in stomach, shoulders forward, wanting to, wanting to disappear and run away. 

Jackie Baxter  
Okay, 

Lorrie Rivers  
so would you describe that as terror? 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah. It could be Yeah, 

Lorrie Rivers  
terror, fear. But go ahead and rate that feeling of wanting to just kind of collapse inside of yourself, or however you wrote it down, and the feeling of wanting to run away and rate those on a scale of zero to 10

Jackie Baxter  
yeah, probably around an eight or a nine for them.

Lorrie Rivers  
Beautiful. So this is great. I kind of cheered when you said an eight or a nine. Not because I want you to be super uncomfortable, but because that means that we have a lot of great work to do here, right, that you're probably going to feel some significant shift with it. Wonderful. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So you can put that aside, and let's do some tapping, and I'm just going to make this up as I go along. And those of you who are listening, you can, like I said, tap along with us on your subject, and you don't even you can just say the same phrases that I'm saying out loud. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Now, when I'm saying the points that we're tapping on, you don't have to repeat that out loud. So, like when I say inner eyebrow, you don't have to repeat that. And then I'll say and say out loud this. So we'll probably do a couple of rounds, and the first time I'll explain in more detail where we're tapping, and then the second time I'll just use probably shorter descriptions there. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So to begin with, and you don't have to tap hard. However you're doing, it is fine. It's really hard to get this wrong. Like, don't worry about getting it wrong. Yeah, and you're tapping on the side of the hand. This is also called the karate chop point. It's the outer side of the hand where, like, the fleshy part of the hand, where you're below your pinky there. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And repeating after me, even though I had all of this panic and terror around the people, and you can say that out loud after Yeah,

Jackie Baxter  
even though I had All of the panic and terror around the people

Lorrie Rivers  
I deeply and completely love and accept myself and how I feel.

Jackie Baxter  
I deeply and completely love and accept myself and how I feel. 

Lorrie Rivers  
I'll break it up a little bit more. It's not, it's not you, that's me, yeah, Alright, great. So we're going to do that similarly again, even though it made me so uncomfortable to be around that many people,

Jackie Baxter  
even though it made me so uncomfortable to be around that many people, 

Lorrie Rivers  
and I just wanted to disappear inside of myself.

Jackie Baxter  
And I just wanted to disappear inside of myself 

Lorrie Rivers  
and run away 

Jackie Baxter  
and run away, 

Lorrie Rivers  
I deeply and completely love and accept myself

Jackie Baxter  
I deeply and completely love and accept myself, 

Lorrie Rivers  
even though it feels really weird to be this vulnerable on my own podcast,

Jackie Baxter  
even though it feels really weird to be so vulnerable on my own podcast,

Lorrie Rivers  
I love and accept myself and how I feel. 

Jackie Baxter  
I love and accept myself and how I feel. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So the first point that we're going to be tapping on is your inner eyebrow. So it's the part of your eyebrow that's the closest to the bridge of your nose, and you can tap using either your right hand or your left hand or both hands, either way. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So repeating after me here, well actually, you can tell me, how about this as you're doing the tapping, so allow yourself to feel that feeling. Again, you said it was in your stomach. So can you allow yourself to get in touch with that feeling? Again, great. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And outer eye, repeating after me, this feeling in my stomach, 

Jackie Baxter  
this feeling in my stomach 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the eye, this feeling in my stomach, 

Jackie Baxter  
this feeling in my stomach 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the nose, the desire to hunch my shoulders in, 

Jackie Baxter  
the desire to hunch my shoulders in, 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the mouth, the desire to just run and hide, 

Jackie Baxter  
the desire to just run and hide. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Collarbones, all of that panic in my body, 

Jackie Baxter  
all of that panic in my body. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Under the arms, I can still feel it right now.

Jackie Baxter  
I can still feel it right now.

Lorrie Rivers  
So under the arm is about where your bra strap would be, yep. So I think you've got it. So we'll keep going, and I'll get more specific. Top of the head, that one's pretty self evident and repeating after me. And I'm feeling a little uncomfortable right now doing this

Jackie Baxter  
and I'm feeling a little uncomfortable right now doing this,

Lorrie Rivers  
inner eyebrows. So again, this is that point of the eyebrow that's closest to the bridge of the nose. I can feel all this uncomfortableness in my body.

Jackie Baxter  
I can feel all this uncomfortableness in my body 

Lorrie Rivers  
outer eye. And this is like where the bone starts just outside your eye, and repeating after me. I allow myself to honor my feelings right now.

Jackie Baxter  
I allow myself to honor my feelings right now under

Lorrie Rivers  
the eye, and this is again, right on the bony part, right underneath the eye. And I'm proud of myself for allowing myself to feel what I'm feeling.

Jackie Baxter  
And I'm proud of myself for allowing myself to feel what I'm feeling,

Lorrie Rivers  
 and then under the nose. And this is like halfway between the nose and the upper lip there, tapping there, all this uncomfortableness, 

Jackie Baxter  
all this uncomfortableness 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the mouth. And this is like in the divot underneath your lip and your chin, that little divot there, I'd really like to let go of all of that anxiety around all those people

Jackie Baxter  
I'd really like to let go of all that anxiety around all those people.

Lorrie Rivers  
And then collarbone. So this one's a little bit tricky. So if you find the knobby parts of your collarbone, just underneath your neck, and then you're going to go down, and then you're going to go over to the outside just a little bit. You'll find an indention there, if you kind of rub into there. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And then you're going to tap around that spot. And again, don't worry about getting it perfect. You can just tap like where you think it might be. Maybe I can give myself permission to let go of some of this anxiety.

Jackie Baxter  
Maybe I can give myself permission to let go of some of this anxiety

Lorrie Rivers  
under the arms, but it might not be safe for me to let go of it.

Jackie Baxter  
But it might not be safe for me to let go of it. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Top of the head. I'm afraid of letting go of it.

Jackie Baxter  
I'm afraid of letting go of it. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Inner eyebrows, it's not safe for me to let go of the anxiety.

Jackie Baxter  
It's not safe for me to let go of the anxiety. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Outer eyes, the anxiety and the panic is protecting me. 

Jackie Baxter  
The anxiety and the panic is protecting me 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the eyes, so part of me feels like I need to keep it 

Jackie Baxter  
so part of me feels like I need to keep it 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the nose, but it really doesn't feel good in my body. 

Jackie Baxter  
But it really doesn't feel good in my body, 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the mouth, and I know that it's actually being stored in my cells,

Jackie Baxter  
and I know that it's actually being stored in my cells

Lorrie Rivers  
collarbone, and that's not what I want, 

Jackie Baxter  
and that's not what I want 

Lorrie Rivers  
under the arms. So I wonder if I can let go of even just 1% of that anxiety about being around other people.

Jackie Baxter  
So I wonder if I can let go of just 1% of that anxiety about being around people

Lorrie Rivers  
and top of the head. I think that I can do that. 

Jackie Baxter  
I think that I can do that 

Lorrie Rivers  
and still top of the head. And maybe this is easier than I even thought it was,

Jackie Baxter  
and maybe this is easier than I thought it was 

Lorrie Rivers  
okay and releasing 

Jackie Baxter  
okay. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And we would normally probably keep going with that and go through some more layers of it. But, you know, for our purposes today. So take a look now at your rating and re-rate all those numbers that you wrote down.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I can definitely feel that that ball in my stomach has released a bit. And I think you said, Can you feel that feeling in your stomach? And it got worse at that point, because I was like putting myself back in that, you know, concert venue, and was like, oh my goodness, I'm back here. I didn't want to be back here. I said I was never going to do this again. And I could literally feel that. But actually, since going around and doing some of that, it has released a bit. So that is cool. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Very cool. So you rated that ball in the stomach at an eight or nine before, what would you rate it at now?

Jackie Baxter  
five or six maybe. So it's definitely still there, but it's not quite as churning as it was. You know, when it's literally kind of churning around and scraping out your insides is kind of how it feels. 

Lorrie Rivers  
You're so good at describing. Yeah, you definitely have a way with words, and that's very descriptive and helpful. I think probably people who are listening as well can relate to that. Probably, so yeah, going down to a five or six, from an eight or nine, beautiful. And if you keep doing this process on it, you'll get down to a zero or a one. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Now what happens a lot of times then, is another aspect will come up. So you'll think that you are done with that issue, and then something else will come up, like, I don't know, in in this case, like, Oh, what did that one person in there think about me on stage? You know? That's, that's just me making things up. But that's an example of another aspect coming up there. So that was beautiful. 

Jackie Baxter  
So it's like whack a mole, isn't it. You know, we talk about Whack a Mole with symptoms. This is one of my favorite phrases, isn't it. You know, you start to get your breathing under control, and then, hey, digestive symptoms. And just as you start to calm that down, you're like, oh, migraines. And it sounds like this is kind of similar, you know, you start to see improvement in one thing, and then, hey, massive anxiety, or whatever it is that's kind of rearing its ugly head next. 

Jackie Baxter  
But I think, you know, that's, that's kind of life, isn't it? No one's ever perfect, and there's always going to be stuff coming up. It's just less big or less overwhelming, I suppose, as we recover, I guess 

Lorrie Rivers  
absolutely, you know, you're using the word perfect, which, I love that word, because it's so charged, 

Jackie Baxter  
such a stupid word, isn't it? 

Lorrie Rivers  
Yeah. And, you know, one of the tapping meditations that we have in the course is I have to get it perfect, or, you know, I have to be perfect. And one of my students a few days ago said That was one of my main issues, and I just got it down to a zero. And my husband's still working on it, and he's not even sick, but he's doing the course as well, which is so sweet. I love that they're doing that together. 

Lorrie Rivers  
So over time, after you've been doing this on a regular basis for a while, you do start to get more and more to the point where - the metaphor that I use is that you're like the ocean. And the stressors that you experience are like waves on the ocean. So you still have that quality of expansiveness underneath there, and yes, the emotions and the issues and things, they still bother you, but there's the vastness of the ocean that's there. 

Lorrie Rivers  
And it moves through you more easily and more quickly. I'm not a big fan of the word quick, because that's not usually applicable, but.. And it happens more naturally as well, absolutely. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah. I mean, that's a really beautiful metaphor for life as well, isn't it? You know, the waves. I mean, you know, I'm a big fan of the water as everyone listening to this will know. But you're floating on this big sea, and, you know, sometimes you have bigger waves and sometimes you have smaller waves. And it's up to you to kind of adapt as you go through this. 

Jackie Baxter  
And I think that is what recovery is, isn't it? It's the ability to be resilient enough to those waves, so when they come, you know what to do. You can handle them. You have those tools. Because the waves will happen, you know, and sometimes they will be big, and sometimes they may be scary, but we can handle them. That's lovely. I like that. 

Lorrie Rivers  
Yay!

Jackie Baxter  
Well, that's probably a lovely place to leave it. So thank you, Lorrie, so much for coming along and chatting to me about this. I'm gonna go down this rabbit hole. I think. I'm really interested in this. 

Jackie Baxter  
So I will make sure that I put a link to some of those research papers that you've mentioned and your website and your course, if anyone's interested in looking into that. So yeah, thank you so much. And yeah, I guess, let us know if you try it, because, yeah, this is interesting.

Lorrie Rivers  
Thank you so much, Jackie. It's always a pleasure. And thank you to everybody who's listening. And just know that you have a lot of people supporting you, and it's doable. It sucks, but it's doable. So yeah, lots of love too. Yeah.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai