145 - Jenny Adams - Recovery from ME/CFS

Episode 145 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with Jenny Adams who is here to share her recovery story! We chat through her illness, the things that helped her and the lessons she has learned.

We also discuss the work Jenny is doing now, and the links to work with her are below.

Free workshop sign up: https://jenny-adams-f409.mykajabi.com/moreenergy

Heal Good Monthly Membership sign up (this will be live when doors open 12-19th Sept) : https://jenny-adams-f409.mykajabi.com/heal-good-sales-page

My Podcast- Calm Your Nervous System: https://open.spotify.com/show/0uO2vEgg9PsES4OWMvTyNt?si=0a18164d9ced4dfd

"No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz" was the book I was telling you about- I love the audiobook because he talks through each exercise

Compassionate Inquiry by Gabor Maté, more info here: https://compassionateinquiry.com/the-approach/

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  
Hello and welcome to this episode of the long covid Podcast. I am delighted to welcome my guest today, Jenny Adams, who is here to talk about recovery, amongst other things. So Jenny, a very warm welcome to the podcast today. It's delight. I'm delighted to see you.

Jenny Adams  
Thank you. Thanks for having me and you know, thank you for being another one of these amazing people that puts out a podcast like this that I wish I had when I was sick. So good on you.

Jackie Baxter  
Thank you so much. So, yeah, we're going to dive into all sorts of stuff today, I think. And we've set ourselves a challenge, haven't we, today? So I'm working on perfectionism at the moment. So what we're going to try and do is put this out unedited, so we'll see how this goes. We're both feeling, I think, slightly vulnerable at the moment,

Jenny Adams  
so let's be perfectly imperfect. Exactly. I

Jackie Baxter  
think, I think this is, this is good. So, Jenny, will you say a little bit more about yourself and maybe what life was like before you became unwell?

Jenny Adams
Yeah, so I'm 33 and I mean life before I was unwell, I think, to be honest, it was when I was a child, I got glandular fever when I was 15, and I just remember, like adults always moaning that, like their joints hurt and they were tired. And at 15, after having glandular fever, which knocked me out for a good few months, I never really recovered. And then I just thought, Oh, well, I just must be an adult, because everyone's always moaning about being tired. And I remember, you know, I was a teenager going out and working in shops and things like that, and I do, like, a four hour shift on my feet, and I would feel like I'd been thrown down the stairs, like multiple times. I was exhausted my like, just everything on my body hurt. I'd need to then I'd sleep for like 12 to 14 hours on the weekend. So it was pretty crazy. So to be honest, life before I was ill, I don't really remember too much. It was when I was a kid, really, and then I kind of had what like 12 years. Ish, yeah, probably about 12 years. No, I think it took me eight years to get diagnosed with me. CFS, so obviously this is before the covid pandemic. But I know, as probably you and a lot of listeners know, that me long covid, the symptoms are very, very similar. So yeah, it was probably, it was like eight years it took me to get diagnosed of just kind of, like pushing through life and various ups and downs, and then I had a car accident in 2015 which my nervous system was already on, like heightened alert, like, you know, the the bucket was already full of stress, and this was the final, like, big spoonful of stuff that was just way too much. And that was probably the point that disabled me. And then I spent a good kind of three or four years, sort of reliant on a wheelchair. Couldn't really go out much, really deconditioned, just probably all the crap that most of your listeners will know, being like, just not being able to go out, not functioning, all of that for a good few years. But I'm now recovered so well that's behind me now, so I'm very thankful for that.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we can maybe dive in a little bit to some of your experiences as well, but I think you know that that kind of diagnosis, I mean, you know, as as you've very rightly said, you know, things, things are kind of different in some ways, certainly to what they were before long, covid came along. I think there's a lot more awareness now, not enough, I don't think, or certainly not enough understanding, but certainly it's something I think that people have heard of a bit more now, whereas people who have had MECFS, you know, all of these kind of health challenges sort of before days almost. It definitely has sounded like it's been harder to be listened to, harder to get a diagnosis, you know. And you know that the other things have just been, I think, I don't know, even more difficult, maybe, than they are now, which sounds pretty horrendous, because they're not, they're not great. Now, let's, let's face it, so, yeah, what, I suppose, what? What were your kind of and you've mentioned some of your symptoms and some of these sort of ups and downs, and that seems to mirror quite a lot of my own experiences. But. Long covid. And certainly, what I've heard a lot from other people that you know, you maybe start to deal a little bit with one symptom, and then, hey, a different one comes along. And then you think you've sort of got a handle on some things, and oh, and then maybe you hit a crash, for sometimes you know what the reason is, and sometimes you don't. And this, this sounds like this was kind of your experience too.

Speaker 1  
Yeah, definitely. And I think, I think, like you said, how things were before covid. You know, it's very easy to be like, back in my day before covid came along, it was really bad. But, yeah, it was pretty shocking that it took eight years of going back to the doctors a couple of times a year, just being like, I'm exhausted, then I have some antidepressants. You're probably just depressed, trying all sorts of different things, also having ADHD and not realizing, I've only realized that in the last year or so, and that's a huge link that I'm seeing more and more. But that's another rabbit hole we can go down. And I remember kind of going through the covid pandemic. And I don't think long covid was necessarily a thing at the time, but just the sheer amount of people that were getting covid and the flu, like symptoms and all the stuff that came with it, I was obviously still in a lot of like MECFS Fibro groups, and we're like, weirdly, kind of celebrating this, because we're like, if so many people are getting sick, maybe they're going to start paying us some attention. This is real. This is an actual physical illness. Can they be doing some research now and then? Obviously, since more of you know, more and more people are getting long covid, which is so similar to MECFS, not the same, but very similar. There does seem to be a little bit more research going on now. And I don't know if this is just a space that I inhabit, but, you know, I'm seeing lots of people that have it or like reactions to the the jabs. And, you know, there's a lot more sort of talk about what's actually, what's actually going on, but, yeah, going back to your question with the the ups and downs, I think I look back now and I remember going to the doctors, and they were like, Are you stressed? And I'm just like, No, I'm okay. And I think I use that analogy of like the boiling frog. You know, if you put a frog in boiling water, they jump out. But if you put a frog in cold water and you slowly turn up the heat, they don't realize and, you know, they boil to death, which is a bit grim, but that was my life. I didn't realize I was in the boiling water because it had just slowly turned up. And throughout this sort of, probably 10 years. And this is, you know, a very prime 10 years. This is from me, me being like 1516, to, like my mid late 20s, a real big growth point for most people. And I went through various abusive relationships. I was in and out of, I can't even count how many different jobs, you know, landlords throwing me out. It just seemed like there was one thing after another. And I see this in other people as well. It's almost like my nervous system was wired for chaos and trauma, and it's familiar, and unconsciously you find it and this isn't blaming anyone or myself, but you just seek out unconsciously, what what's familiar. And it took a long time for me to sort of break that cycle and realize maybe I'm the common denominator here, and I have some control over this. This isn't my landlord and my job and the doctor, and like everyone out there, maybe I can do something as well. And I think that was the pivot of me changing, but going back to the ups and downs, it was, it was always just something external. So, funny enough. I went on Facebook this morning, and I saw my like my memory, that popped up from 2016 and it said, already got an interview, and it took me back to 2016 which is probably the worst year of my illness, and I've been working in a contract job, and basically The first of September. September is not a pleasant month for me, and I know we are filming this in September. My dad died in September. It'd be his 20 year anniversary this this year. So September, the change of the season, has just always been a really hard time for me. First of September comes. I got sacked from my contract job. No, no fault of my own. I was a contractor, and they were getting quieter and quieter, but that was one of those real like, Oh my God. I did not see this coming. What am I going to do? How am I going to pay my bills? And then I think by the end of that month, my landlord would throw me out. But it was one of those memories. That popped up, that I got flooded on the first and I had another interview lined up on the second, and I think within a week, I had another job. But it was the stress. It was just a constant, unsettled. I now need to go somewhere else, and I need to explain about my house and like hope that they don't discriminate against me, and just so much of that took such a toll, and the stress of all of that would then obviously flare up my symptoms. So I think that was I remember that, that that day and that week, going home and just sitting in bed and eating pizza with next door's cat because my landlord wouldn't let me have a cat. But you can't stop the neighbor's cat coming in, just sitting on the bed, just being like, oh my god, what am I going to do with my life? Just everything feels so shit right now. And that was probably a week or two flare up where I had to, and it was just survival mode. Just everything was survival mode constantly. And I think the more times I went through these ups and downs, well there's probably wasn't many ups, to be honest, it was like downs and worse downs. It just got so every like my body, each each down, each flare up, was then almost deconditioning me more. Everything was such a it was such a hard slog. It was almost like I take one step forward and then like four steps back. So, yeah, it was, it was a pretty tough time.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, absolutely. And it almost feels like, you know, when things start going wrong, that's when more things start going wrong, you know, it's, it's the week where you're really busy at work that your boiler breaks down, you know, it's, it's always going to be that way, you know, for a sort of long, non, non chronic illness, example, kind of thing, you know. And then, you know, then your cat will get sick in the same week, and, you know, so it kind of, don't know why it is, but this does tend to be the thing, you know, it's people say they come in threes, don't they? You know, it's like, when one thing goes wrong, you know, you know there's going to be a couple more coming. It's just kind of the way it tends to be often. But yeah, I loved what you said a moment ago about having some sort of control. Because, you know, I'm sure you know, you and I have both experienced this, and you know, I'm sure everybody else listening as well. You know, we just feel completely out of control. You know, your body is not behaving in the way it should effectively. You know, it's not doing what you should be expecting of it. It's not functioning. It's not allowing you to live your life, and it's making everything else so much more difficult. So we just feel this kind of, you know, I described it as flailing, where you literally, you don't know what's going on. You don't know. You don't have any control. You've got, you know, there's nothing really to hold on to, you know, you sort of that sort of drowning feeling, isn't it? There's all those, you know, pictures of people sort of, you know, with their arm above water. You know, someone help me. And that is kind of how you feel in that situation. And I think finding something to grab on to, you know, it's like that, like lifeboy, isn't it? When you're floating in the sea kind of thing, that first thing so important, and it's different for everybody. You know what that first thing is? So let's talk a little bit about, well, what was your first thing? And you know, what? What did you find that did kind of help? And, yeah, what did that look like for you?

Speaker 1  
Yeah, I think the control thing's really interesting because, and I see this in my clients, is that there's often a lack of autonomy, that I can't do anything, everything that happens to me is, like someone else's fault, or it's because I've got long covid, or because there's this pathogen in me, like it's the fault of a thing, it's something else. And it's not saying that you know you're at fault either. But yeah, it can be quite interesting that there is very much an external, outwardly facing view of what we can control. And then we say, I can't control anything, because it's all out there on the flip side. And I was probably, well, I've probably gone into both of these. We try and control everything, and I remember when I, like, probably at my worst, I was going out and having panic attacks because I was okay. Where do I park? Have I got my blue badges? What if there's no disabled spaces? What if I'm in the supermarket and the queues really long? What time can I go? When's it going to be quietest? Just all of the stuff that was constantly going on, and I have ADHD, so my executive functioning planning organization is not great anyway, so all of this mental energy was bloody exhausting on top of a chronic illness. So yeah, I kind of see those two sides of my own journey, and in other people that we then, because we feel so out of control with our body and our symptoms, we then look at, well, I'm going to micromanage my partner or my kids or work or whatever, because that's the only little thing we have control over. But I think once I flipped that into okay, I'm in this situation, I can control my reaction to these symptoms, and it was at the point where I stopped fighting my body. I stopped fighting my pain and just being so angry and resistant at the world and like, this is not fair. Why has this happened? I'm not done anything wrong. I think that was the point that I actually started to recover. And I remember being in bed at my mom's house, and I'd come in from work because that was all I could manage. I could drive to work, have a nap in the car at lunchtime, and God knows, how I managed to get to work. I remember going in one day and one of my friends coming up to me and being like, Jenny, you okay? Your dress is on inside out and back to front. I was walking around with my label, like under my chin, okay? And obviously, you know, it has to be a stretchy dress, and I have to have leggings on, because everything else felt too much, and I couldn't do zips up and, yeah, just everything had to be controlled that to be comfortable. And I remember lying in my in my bed at my mom's house, and I think I was just so fed up with feeling pain, something just switched. And I was like, Well, how about I get curious and look at this pain and listen to what it's trying to tell me. And I think it was something in my knee. I'm hypermobile as well. Something was going on in my knee, and it was like a achy, hot, like throbbing, and as soon as it was almost like it was trying to scream at me, and as soon as I looked at it, you know, it's like the tantruming toddler. Sometimes they just want attention. And when you focus that attention and you stop being like, be quiet, stop screaming, and you like, go, Okay, what do you want? They're like, oh, oh, you're listening to me. Okay, I don't need to. I can quiet down the reaction now. And it was at that point that this pain just got quieter, and I noticed how quickly, just me shifting my mindset very slightly, that it was still there, but it wasn't so bad, and then I didn't have the sort of stress reaction then of well, Now I've got pain, and now I'm pissed off about having pain, and I think I started to tune into that I was starting to do, like meditations and things, and just starting to feel like a bit safer in my body again. And then I went to go and see a private doctor in, I think this was end of 2017 I would have been 26 I remember going in and going, it was probably 50 meters. But I was so anxious how far it might be, because we all know hospitals are huge. I didn't know how far I'd have to go. So I took my mobility scooter, and she sat and she listened to me for an hour. It wasn't 10 minutes of like, what's on fire right now, or what pills do you want? It was my whole history of, I think she was like, an infectious diseases or had a speciality in that, because I was like, Is this Lyme disease, is this some, like, weird thing I've picked up when I've been traveling? And, yeah, she she went through my whole backstory, and I think she started to link. Okay, your dad died when you're 13. You've been in abusive relationships. You had glandular feet. Like, there's these big thing, like, these big traumas that have happened in life. And I bet you haven't spoken to anyone on this podcast that hasn't had some switch, whether it's covid, whether it's something stressful in their event in their life, you know, an illness, there's, there's always something that triggers this. We don't just, I mean, there might be the odd exception, but I've not seen that there's something that triggers this, and she was kind of pointing those out to me, but so anyway, she did a whole barrage of tests, and she recommended I go and see someone for movement and an osteopath. And this kind of set me on this journey. Of starting to feel at home and safe in my body. And I had tried lots of different things, and I look back now and I realize what I was actually doing was, well, feeling safe in my body and regulating my nervous system. And I think I'd been stuck in that sympathetic dorsal shut down, freeze, fight flight for so long. And I see this on other people, and there is another state they there's our ventral vagal, our relaxed, connected, healing state that we can be in. And I was probably going into that like very occasionally, that was very unfamiliar, especially when it came to my body. My body was all about pushing and fighting and ignoring and so that was really one of the huge things that helped me, was finding safe movement that I enjoyed, because Movement, to me was going to the gym and pushing myself, ignoring all the symptoms to stop until I collapsed, listening to an instructor that was like, Come on, just do a few more. Keep going. Push harder. No pain, no gain and all that absolute bullshit. Excuse my language, but it is. I changed my diet as well. I was working in a cake factory at the time, and I was the buyer, which sounds lovely, but I had to buy, like something like 300,000 tons of dairy, or liters of dairy a year, or something disgusting amount of dairy. And it was all to do with like price, nothing to do with animal welfare. And this set me off on the we were doing a project on veganism. The more I was looking into this, the more I was like, hang on a minute. This makes sense. I'm very sensitive, empathic. There's something that doesn't sit right with me, so I ended up trying a vegan diet for a week. I've got a nut energy. I'm fussy. So I was like, this isn't going to work. Went back to having dairy after that week, felt like I was going to throw up for three days solid. So that was a very clear, loud message from my body, this isn't for you. And it was once I actually kept on with that vegan diet that it was just like someone put my batteries back in. So much of this inflammation had just quietened down, and then I could start moving. And also, at the same time, I was seeing a therapist. So just going back to me being vegan, and I say this to people, some people, it helps. This is what worked for my body. And I encourage everyone figure out what works for your body. Because for some people, I mean, I've heard some people say they gave, like, paleo, some people go into like, full on carnists, which I don't quite get, but if that works, you, do you? But yeah, it's finding like, what works, what nourishes your body. And for me, I've been vegan now six years. Yeah, six years, never felt better. It worked for me. So it was safe movement, a change of my diet, and seeing a therapist, because I think I'd realized I'm keep having the same patterns of sexual trauma with partners, and I'm the common denominator here. So is it all of the all these men are taught, maybe.

Speaker 1  
But also, why am I ending up with them? What is it about them that's attracting me. What's the I need to be loved and controlled? So that was a huge thing, is actually having, and that was for me, like the first layer of starting to deal with some of this. And this was just talking therapy. It wasn't like anything somatic, anything to do with trauma. This is me just having someone to talk to each week and being like, Oh, something works really annoying me. Or, yeah, it was very just sort of generic. But again, I think like having that doctor Listen to me, I felt heard. And I hear this and see this with a lot of my clients, is they've gone through life giving and giving and giving and giving and doing everything for everyone else. And I was that person perfectionism as well, and to just sit and have someone listen and that all these little annoying, like stresses they weren't building up. There was somewhere to kind of offset it. And that was 2018 and I remember I went to see Beyonce in, I think May, that was the last time I used my mobility scooter. And then a year later, August, 2019 I was in Ibiza on my own partying. And. Yeah, so that year was a real recovery year. And you know, people say to me, and you've probably heard as well, like, how long does it take to get better? And that is a bit, how long is a piece of string, but for me to get my body strong enough, my mind strong enough, like my nervous system regulated, putting boundaries up with people get getting rid of my toxic ex boyfriend, a friend who wasn't very supportive, getting out of a lot of these like codependent relationships. That was just like my year of freedom. I was single. I was just loving life that, yeah, I was catching up on the decade of missed opportunities and missed fun. So yeah, I think I was 28 and I'm like, fuck it, I'm off to Ibiza, I'm gonna go partying, I'm gonna get on Tinder, I'm gonna have my fun, because I haven't done it for years, and that's what recovery can be sometimes.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, it sounds so freeing as well. And, you know, I, I can sort of relate to that, and a little bit, you know, I think, when I think it was, I think it was June, when I finally said June last year, when I was like, Okay, I think, I think I'm recovered, but obviously I was very unfit, you know, I sort of didn't know what my life was going to look like, and I was ready to dive straight back into 100 million things. And therapists are very wise, or they certainly can be very frustrating, because they're always right, but they're very wise, I think. And mine said to me, why don't you take a little bit of time. And I think she sort of, you know, she said, you know, maybe could you take a week or a couple of weeks. I think she wanted me to take more. But I think she was sort of giving me something that I could sort of, you know, hold on to start with. Anyway, I ended up taking off about two and a half months and just thinking, Gosh, that was the best thing I could have done, because it just gave me that kind of time to kind of just be me and work out what me was kind of because I think, I mean, something that I've experienced, and that I've heard everybody else say, I think that has recovered as well. You come out a different person to what you went in. Oh yes. And you know that sounds very true for you. I mean, you obviously went in as quite a quite a young person as well, but, but even even for anyone who was ill for a shorter time, I think you know, you can't come out without changing. I think so. Yeah, how dramatic that change is. I suppose is going to vary person to person. But I think you always come out different. I'd love to hear a little bit about that kind of that year, you know, how did you go from okay, I've found the things that helping these things are kind of, you know, stuff is starting to shift. Stuff is starting to settle. I'm starting to feel a bit better, you know, I'm even starting to feel like I can do things again. How did you go from that kind of gentle exploration to boom, I can do anything? Because I think this, this isn't, I mean, people ask me this, and I'm not sure either. So I'm kind of wondering what your take on that is, was it a sort of gentle, sort of pushing of boundaries and building up, or what was your Yeah, what did that look like for you?

Speaker 1  
Yeah. And I think this was a just a mess that I kind of fell into that happened to work, and this is why like so this is why I do the work I do now, because I just figured this out, and I was just fumbling around in the dark and I didn't have a clue. I was just trying different things, and eventually I kind of hit on something that worked, but I wish I had support through that, and understanding, like my baseline and when I push too hard and what's safe and like the nervous system, is such a huge thing. But to your point about the changing, I think when you're in this, all you want is your old life back, because that's all you know is right now I'm sick, but then I could do all these things, and I really want that back from someone who's gone through this and has come out the other side, Life can be so much better. And if I went back to living the way I used to live. I'd probably be sick again because I was ignoring my body. I was pushing past boundaries. I wasn't I wasn't able to set boundaries with people. I was just always living in suppression, and also suppression of my immune system. So you know, I was always ill as well, and right. Like now I have the best relationships. Like I'm getting married next year. I can, I can talk about what I need, what serves me, what doesn't. You know, I'm in my luteal phase now. I'm in my menstrual cycle. I am, like, feisty, pissed off. Like yesterday, I just spent half the day crying, and then I made brownies. But like, I know where I am in my cycle. I work with that now I honor that. That is something that I can then say to my my partner, like I'm just struggling. Can I have a hug? Can we just watch TV and don't judge me for eating? Because this is what I need right now, whereas before I'd be beating myself up. Why am I like that? You shouldn't be like this. Do that instead, and you're wasting this and you're trying to lose weight and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, I think you kind of have to change. But again, that's another nervous system thing. Is when you only know what's familiar, that familiarity becomes safe, whether familiar is sickness or abusive relationships or trauma or whatever it is that you're used to, your nervous system equates that with a level of safety. So to try anything new is unsafe. So it's kind of like, how do we regulate ourselves into that newness? And it's kind of the building up of the evidence. And I think that was my gradual journey in that sort of 2018 to 19 phase. Was just doing things. And one of the things I love to do, like my Thursday afternoons, I'd finish work early, I'd go see my therapist, I'd go to a Pilates class, and then I go and eat whatever the hell I wanted. And that was like my afternoon for me, and it was all about me and what I wanted. And that was the first time I think I'd ever honored that in myself. I was investing my money in my well being, I was being listened to, and the more I was being listened to, when I was going to Pilates, I was I'd found a place in Bristol, and it was full of other people that had chronic illnesses, and sometimes it was like, just turn up if you just need to lie down for the hour, that's fine. And we'd all talk about how we were getting on, and I just felt a sense of belonging there. And I was actually enjoying movement. It wasn't that gym instructor who's like, get down and give me 20. It was kind and compassionate. And again, it was just building up that little bit of evidence each week. Oh, this is okay, to the point where I don't think I ever had that. Oh, my God, I can do anything, not that year anyway, and I still get snippets of like, Are you sure? So it was just building. It's just that gradual building up and and I think Ibiza was one of those moments where I thought, Well, I'm gonna try it. I think I feel okay and like I got away with it. And then I remember coming home and I couldn't get out of bed for an entire day, and I was just like, Oh no, I've just pushed myself too far, and this is a massive flare up. What have I done to myself? And Ibiza was also a bit of a fuck you to my employers, because they basically said if I pursue a sexual harassment case, then I wouldn't have a job. So I was like, Well, I'm going to Ibiza. I quit. I'm off Bye, and that was what I did. But anyway, came back from Ibiza, spent this whole day in bed. And I just remember my mum saying, Jen, most people who've been to Ibiza for a week, partying, staying up until sunset, no sunrise, are probably going to spend a day in bed. And I spent a day in bed, and then I got up the next day, and I was fine. That was just a hard week of my body. But then I went back to how I was I was normal. I was fine. So I think another thing is also just sort of just reminding yourself that you, like everyone, has bad days. I didn't sleep very well last night, for example. It happens. We all have bad days. We have bad night's sleep. We get ill, and then to not kind of catastrophize it into like, oh my god, I'm going to get ill again. And that just feeds the panic. And then we pull ourselves out of that healing state, and we're, probably going to create that reality. And like our brain has a has a clever part where we look to confirm that we're right. So if we are looking for pain, we're going to find it. If we're looking for discomfort, if we're looking to say, Well, look, I'm going to get ill again, and then we get ill. See, knew it, knew it. So it's kind of working with that part of our brain and being like, No, it's okay. How about we look out for the good stuff? How about we look out that I can prove that I can do this? So yeah, it's, it's playing with that. I. Yeah, and I think even now, like, I went to Devon last week, and I went down with a friend who she's also recovered from MECFS, and we boasted a two or three mile walk. We're around, you know, we're on a really noisy beach. There's kids everywhere, so the end of the summer holidays, and the sun's out, and we were just sort of walking back up this big hill, chatting, just being like, Oh my God, look at what we can do now. This is amazing. And I think we were both just reflecting on how grateful we are for having been ill, because it you don't see the beauty in life until you've not been able to go and experience it. So I do still have to pinch myself sometimes and say, No, I can go and do these things. I will be okay. And, like, one thing my mum says when I was learning to drive, because she's quite a confident driver, like, if you can get into it, you can get out of it. So if I've, like, backed myself down a footpath instead of a, you know, a road you got in, you get out. And I think I just remind myself of that, like, if I do get into a situation, I'll be okay. I'm still here. I've been through some really horrific stuff in my life. I can handle the panic of what's going on right now. I can ask for help. I can do whatever I need in that moment. And that's pretty liberating to feel like that, like I've got this.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, I think there's something about, you know, going through horrible experiences. Is it? Well, you know, it's like it says on the 10, isn't it? It's a horrible experience. I wouldn't wish my experience on anybody else, but I think, as you say, it gives you two things. I think it gives you a greater appreciation for your health and the life that you have now, and I think it also gives you that increased resilience for when tough times come along, because you know that that's life, isn't it? You know stuff is going to happen, whether it's illness or, I don't know, whatever it is, stressful situation at work or an argument with a friend or, gosh, anything. You know, there's so many stressful things that can happen in life. And I think you know you and I and everyone else who's recovered have built up those tools that helps you to deal with that stuff when it comes along. And you know those people who are still on the journey, you know you are building up those tools with everything that you find that helps with every bit of evidence that you find that your body is starting to work, rather than it isn't, you know that that is increasing, that resilience for, you know, beyond, I think you know, which is maybe you know, like you were saying, you know, you can choose to look at things in a different you know. I mean, you'd call it the glass half full, or the glass half empty kind of thing. Couldn't you to make it very simplistic, and you know, when everything feels like it's going wrong, it's very easy to have a glass half empty, and it's, I suppose, yeah, trying to find some way can is, is there a way that I could look at this? And you know, sometimes it's very difficult, and sometimes it's like, no, no, right? Now I feel terrible, and I'm actually just going to allow myself to feel terrible, but then maybe tomorrow I can have a glass that's maybe a bit more full and empty kind of thing. So yeah, I suppose it's, you know, allowing yourself to have those feelings, you know, of awfulness, and then, okay, put forward or whatever.

Speaker 1  
And I think often the like the glass half four and a half empty thing is, is dysregulation, and we go through it. And this is where having a flexible nervous system, one that isn't always calm, and one that isn't like stuck in a ventral state, but it's also not stuck in freeze or fight flight either, because we all like, shit happens. We go through stuff in life, and it's how do we respond to that? And like, I've been through it, and I've seen this in my clients as well, that they get to a point where they're like, Oh, well, I need to hold on to this, because I cannot ever get ill again, because the world will fall apart if something happens. And it's not that resiliency of like, okay, I'm dysregulated, and I think I'm so much better now because I've had support at noticing when I'm dysregulated and either just naming it, reaching out for support, yeah, speaking to a friend, listening to I listen. I love dick Schwartz, ifs he's got a great book called No, no, bad parts. I met him a couple of months ago as well. But, yeah, he just talks through a really lovely exercise. And he's just got this really nice, like, calming American voice. And yeah, he just talks you through. Okay, what does this part need? Can we ask the protectors to move aside and just working within that kind of. Fs model, that's been something I've taken myself off because I've had an argument with my partner. I've driven off in a huff, and I've, like, parked up, and I'm just like, Oh my God. Like, I'm gonna have to break up with him. Now. I have to sell a house, and, you know, you've got this spiral of like, of course, that's not gonna happen. I'm just dysregulated, but in that moment that feels very real, and that's very much. You know, your glass is probably empty. It's not even half full. And yeah, that I'm just getting better now and recognizing dysregulated. What do I need? And it's not dealing with. Oh, well, he was a dick, and he shouldn't have said this. And like going into the story of it, it's my body is dysregulated right now. My mind is telling stories to try and make sense of this. What does my body need to come back to some level of regulation, and then you can tackle that problem together and go home and be like, okay, when you said that, that really upset me. Oh, I'm really sorry I didn't realize that. Upset. You know, let's talk about it so much easier than two dysregulated people fighting each other, because nothing good comes from that. So and also, going back to the like, the tough times thing, like, I, I work with a lot of people who've got trauma trained with gab or Marty and compassionate inquiry. And one thing I like to remind people, especially working with a lot of people with PTSD and CPTSD, is you've been through some of the worst, most horrific things known to man, and you've survived it. You are here to tell the story, whatever goes on now, and you recounting the story, or the dysregulation, the stuff that's going in your body, can't be worse than that. And you survived that with no tools. So you can get through this, because you've got experience, you've got hindsight, you've got tools. You can get through this.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think that's that's so powerful, because a lot of the time we don't feel like we can. I think you know that. You know you and I have both been there, and I think anybody listening is definitely had that moment. I can't do this. So yeah, that's, that's a really good reminder. So, yeah, what? What is life? Now you've, you've mentioned that you're working with with a lot of trauma, with a lot of sort of dysregulation and everything. So yeah, take us through what you do, and you've got a launch coming up as well, I think next week. Yes,

Speaker 1  
yes. So I work as a chronic illness coach, and I work for people with burnout and ADHD burnout as well, because more and more I'm seeing a lot of women their CFS, a lot of their symptoms are coming from a suppression and ADHD burnout. I'm seeing that a lot, so yeah, I work with with both. So I have one to one coaching for anyone that wants to go on like a deeper dive. Have that, that real compassionate support. Because, yeah, beating yourself up more is not going to help, and often what got you to this place is not going to get you well. So it needs a change. So I work one to one with people, and I also have a monthly membership called healgood, so we're opening the doors to that in a couple of weeks, and that is all somatic practices. So that's mind, body connection. It's really slow, gentle, chronic illness, friendly movement. There's meditation in there. There's mindset stuff. There's a whole nervous system toolkit. There's a community. So there's loads of amazing stuff in this monthly membership. But I'm also doing, on the 12th of September, a free workshop. So I'm going to be talking through some of the mistakes that I see people making, and also, like seven key steps to helping you in your recovery. So it's completely free, and that's going to be on the 12th of September, at five o'clock UK time. So I think we'll probably drop the note in the show notes the link. So if anyone wants to come along to that, then, yeah, it's coming off the 12th. So really looking forward to that and and I've also, you know, one of the main things I hear from people is recovery costs money, same as you know, when I went to see that doctor that cost me 1000s. That was the crux to me recovering. So I've also tried to make this monthly membership as affordable as possible. So yeah, if anyone is interested all the somatic stuff in there, then yeah, have a have a little look. Or I'm on social media. I'm on Instagram. It's probably the best place to get me. I'm at chronic illness coach. So always happy to drop into the. DMS and have a chat with anybody. So yeah, that's where you can find me

Jackie Baxter  
amazing, and I'll make sure that all of those links go into the show notes. So anyone who's frantically trying to grab a pen, don't worry. Head to the show notes, and they're all there. So maybe just finally, what advice? Might you have wanted to hear earlier on in your journey that might have been useful to

Speaker 1  
you? Oh, good question. I think understanding and embodying the nervous system, because what I realized helped me on my recovery was nervous system regulation, but it was all done in like, a sneaky way. And nervous system regulation isn't just like shaking that can be a tool, but it's when it's done and at what time. A lot of it's just feeling safe, and that's what I was doing. But it's not just learning about it, it's actually embodying it and putting into practice, because we can live up in our brains, because we're very disconnected from our bodies, because they hurt. We don't want to be down here. So finding anything that makes you feel good in your body safe, and that's not just eating chocolate, sometimes it can be but yeah, whether it's around a certain person that you're just like, oh, feel good when I'm around you and maybe avoiding the people the way you're like, No, don't like your vibe. I feel uncomfortable. Like just finding more stuff that makes you feel good. Because the more you feel good, the more you feel good. You're going to seek it out. But yeah, embodying it

Jackie Baxter  
completely so Jenny, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you, hearing about all the things that helped you and what you're up to now. So yeah, I encourage anyone to check out the links in the show notes. And yeah, thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker  
Thank you so much for having me.

Jackie Baxter  
It's been my pleasure. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai