152 - Jenny Adams - Embracing Self-Compassion: Navigating ADHD, Perfectionism, and Chronic Illness

Ever wondered how the traits of ADHD intersect with perfectionism & chronic illness? Jenny Adams returns to offer insights into the intricate dance between trauma, perfectionism, & health challenges. We unravel how ADHD manifests uniquely in women & discuss the crucial need to recognize these traits to better support those managing chronic illnesses. Jenny's story is not just one of struggle but also of hope & inspiration for those seeking a path to recovery.

Exploring the connections between trauma & perfectionism, we discuss insights from thought leaders like Gabor Maté, considering how these patterns can emerge as responses to past experiences. Through personal anecdotes, we highlight the struggle of all-or-nothing thinking & the significance of finding satisfaction in the present moment rather than in unattainable ideals. From breaking tasks into manageable pieces to self-regulation strategies during overwhelming times, we offer practical support to listeners who face similar challenges in their everyday lives.

Perfectionism can often be mistaken for a strength, yet it frequently leaves us dissatisfied & longing for control. We reflect on how perfectionist tendencies may stem from feelings of unworthiness, drawing on personal stories to emphasize the importance of vulnerability & self-compassion. Together, we explore how childhood beliefs & societal pressures shape our quest for perfection & the emotional toll it takes. By focusing on the power of self-compassion over perfectionism, we aim to inspire you to embrace a more balanced & self-compassionate life, recognizing your inherent worth beyond productivity.

Membership to Heal Good

Link to Jenny's facebook group, How to recover from chronic illnesses

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Chapters

• 0:00 ADHD and Perfectionism
• 9:55 Trauma, Perfectionism, and Self-Compassion
• 17:30 Navigating Perfectionism and Recovery
• 22:39 Navigating Perfectionism and Childhood Beliefs
• 40:43 Regulating and Productivity Strategies
• 51:51 Compassion Over Perfectionism

Transcript

Jackie Baxter: 0:55

Hello and welcome to the Long Covid Podcast. I'm delighted to welcome back Jenny Adams Now. Jenny was on the podcast quite recently sharing her recovery story, so I highly recommend you go back and listen to that because it's really interesting. But today we're gonna talk a bit more about this topic of perfectionism that comes up a lot with a lot of people in this kind of chronic illness world um, and also kind of its integration with, integration with I don't know if that's even the right word of kind of adhd um and the sort of the busy brain um and how that with perfectionism can often be a little bit like a bit of a powder keg, I think. So in true perfectionism form. We are doing this unedited, so the challenge is laid down. Welcome back, jenny. It's so nice to see you.

Jenny Adams: 1:50

Thanks for having me back. Yeah, and let's. Let's give this a shot and see if we can nip our perfectionist tendencies in the bud and just get it done. It doesn't have to be perfect.

Jackie Baxter: 2:02

Exactly. I think I definitely felt last time when we put it out unedited. There were so many times where I nearly went back and I was like, oh, I'll just go, look at that bit, I'll just, I'll just, I'll just. And I was like, no, no, no. It felt very liberating to do it, although it was very terrifying. Um, so before we dive into this, would you just say a few words about yourself and what you do, and people who want to know more um can go back and listen to the other episode yeah, sure, and just just on what you've said, I think with perfectionism I'm gonna start already.

Jenny Adams: 2:41

It's. It's so interesting that we're we're often the ones that are like nitpicking at things and no one else cares. It's us that go. Oh yeah, but what if they heard that little cough? What if, what, if, like, no one cares, just get it out there. So, yeah, anyway. So I'm Jenny Adams.

Jenny Adams: 2:59

I have recovered from ME CFS, which I feel personally I had, from ADHD burnout I had. Well, I've still not got a diagnosis for ADHD. My assessment is next week Yay, after a long list of waiting. So I got very, very ill in my um. So I got very, very ill in my uh, probably my teens and my 20s got glandular fever. I've got a history of trauma, unfortunately, and I think it was just that allostatic load of too much on my nervous system, having really crap boundaries um, all this stuff. That just impacted into burnout and I just kept pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing and it made me very, very sick. So I ended up using a wheelchair or a mobility scooter for a lot of my 20s. I have now fully recovered.

Jenny Adams: 3:51

I was off traveling in Spain last week. I'm off to America in a couple of months. So I'm off, doing things, living my best life. Just been out walking this morning. So, yeah, I'm, I'm doing, I'm living, which is amazing. Um, and I also support people that are in a similar position to where I was, um, working with people with chronic illnesses and more and more working with people who've got ADHD and ADHD burnout, because I've realized through my clients coming to me, I'd say probably 80% of them are women with undiagnosed ADHD and all this the masking and the shame and the trauma and the stuff that comes with ADHD often results in physical symptoms. So, yeah, I help people that want to get away from those symptoms and get their lives back and not be so held back.

Jackie Baxter: 4:49

Yeah, that sounds amazing and I mean it's interesting for me because there's an awful lot of people that I've noticed with long COVID, with ME-CFS, that have had, or who have recovered from these, who have had kind of subsequent ADHD diagnoses. I don't have an ADHD diagnosis, but the more I learn about it, the more I think my brain certainly tends in that direction. Whether I have it or not, I don't know and it's not relevant to me, but just understanding that my brain, you know, has some of those tendencies I find is very useful. But before we dive into this, what is ADHD and how might someone recognize some of those traits in themselves?

Jenny Adams: 5:37

So ADHD stands for attention deficit, hyperactive disorder. You can also get ADD, which is attention deficit disorder, which I think the ADD type is more common in women, which is the inattentive type. The hyperactive is more seen in men and boys. I'm pretty sure I've got the hyperactive type because I can't sit still. But some of the traits that come with ADHD a lot of people will have, but it's to what extreme. So things like being forgetful, having executive functioning issues. So what that means is our prefrontal cortex, the front of our brain, things like planning time, emotional regulation, things like that we we often struggle with. One of the classic things that most ADHDers will say is having like a gazillion thoughts and having all these ideas, and we're often very multi-passionate. We will often have lots of different hobbies. We'll be the people that can like bake and sew and knit and you know detail, cars and like all the, all the random things are just some of my hobbies that I've gone through and they've they've gone to a hobby graveyard. But also there's there's this, there's the stuff that comes with like RSD, which is rejection, sensitive dysphoria I think that's what the d stands for which has been very sensitive to emotion and feeling like we're being rejected. So, like for me, for example, I think I might have pmdd I don't know what that stands for basically like extreme pms, the week before my period at least, which is where I am right now. I just feel awful. I feel like everyone hates me. What's the point in doing anything? Like all these thoughts come into my head that I'm just and I've done a lot of work on myself and I now have to say my thoughts are not real. These are just hormones doing things and messing with my head. So there's there's more. Um, often, adhd is a highly sensitive people as well, so we might have been the kids that you know don't like loud noises and we get very, um, overwhelmed by sensory stuff. Um, so, yeah, there's a. There's a lot of sort of nuances, and I've not covered all of all of the things, but yeah, there's, there's a. There's a lot of sort of nuances, and I've not covered all of all of the things, but yeah, there's, there's a. There's a broad spectrum and I think it's great.

Jenny Adams: 8:07

More and more is being spoken about ADHD now. Um, it is also on a spectrum, so most people can probably relate to some of those things, but it's to what? What extent does it disrupt and interrupt your life? I guess so, um, yeah, so for me, I do find some of these symptoms quite difficult to manage. But having dysregulated ADHD is like a million times worse. If you don't know that you have it and you don't have the tools in place to regulate your nervous system, and it's already dysregulated, it can be a bit of a recipe for disaster. So often coming into that regulated nervous system and this is sort of the work that I do, um can be a huge help, because finding that kind of safety within ourselves means we're not having to fiddle with stuff, we're not having to, you know, jump between stuff all the time. We can just be in ourselves and be okay, which can be really, really scary for a lot of us ADHDers. So yeah, hopefully that explains a little bit about what it is.

Jackie Baxter: 9:20

That's, that's my take on it, anyway yeah and um, I mean, like I think what you said was so useful in that it's on a spectrum, um, and I think that's what's going to make this conversation relevant probably to everybody, um, because even people who have some of these symptoms, maybe on quite a minor level, it's still useful to know how to manage them, to have tools in place for, maybe, when that particular thing rears itself up a little bit more. And, of course, you know, the regulating of the nervous system is so key for everybody. So, yeah, that's really useful. Now, perfectionism is this something that is particularly common in ADHDers? Is it just common across the board? What do you see there, in your work, I suppose, and in yourself?

Jenny Adams: 10:12

So I would say not everyone with ADHD is necessarily a perfectionist and not everyone with a chronic illness is necessarily perfectionist either. But if you look at the general population and this is just my observations, this, you know, I've not looked at any clinical studies into this, but from what I see generally people who've got ME-CFS, long COVID, fibromyalgia, adhd there's often an element of trauma involved in their illness and from that trauma often comes perfectionism. So I've trained with Gabor Marte and you know obviously massive fan of his, and one of the things that he would say is that perfectionism is is a trauma response and the more I look into it and understand what's driving it, the more I can see what he's talking about and where that comes from. And I definitely have some perfectionism tendencies, but I think I've I've've become more relaxed. I have the motto now, done is better than perfect.

Jenny Adams: 12:06

So when my, when my partner's moaning at me that I've not folded the washing as it comes out the tumble dryer, I'm like it's going to stay in the tumble dryer for a week or it's going to get taken out in one lump and then it's going to get folded another day. So done is better than perfect. And I think that is. Another thing with ADHD is, in particular, is that all or nothing thinking. So it either gets left in the washing in the tumble dryer or it gets all that. All gets done perfectly. There is no in between, and those are both kind of either end of a spectrum of a dysregulated nervous system like where is the safety in the middle of? I can do this, the task gets done and it's okay yeah, and I think, yeah, I mean this is so interesting.

Jackie Baxter: 12:55

I mean I see some of these traits in myself, some worse than others. And you know, I guess, coming back to the regulation thing, you know when you're busy, getting really, really, really stressed about something else, that's when I start to notice some of these tendencies come out more. So you know the washing, for example, I have a massive pile of washing that my partner has very carefully folded and piled up on the counter for me to put away, and it's been there for about three weeks and it's getting higher. Every week a new layer gets put on and it's almost like the more washing that I get put on there, the bigger task it becomes. And rather than just putting a few t-shirts away when I have a moment before I go to bed or when I get up, it's like's a big task.

Jackie Baxter: 13:44

Oh, oh, we'll leave that, we'll wait for layer four. And you know I I'm being silly, you know it's a silly example, but you know it's. It's these sort of things where you start to notice them as you get a bit more awareness. You're like, oh okay, that's that's very interesting, isn't it?

Jenny Adams: 14:02

and you say that's, you say that's silly. But I would challenge that because these are the real life issues that can. They can be really fucking hard to deal with because, like, for example, I got back from Spain on Saturday night, I'd gone into anaphylactic shock the weekend before. I then got put on steroids for a week, which steroids are just stress hormones, so I wasn't sleeping for a week. I've come home, we're on a late night flight and then I've uh, I've got a cold as well at the moment. So obviously my body's been through a lot in the last you know week or so.

Jenny Adams: 14:43

And I'm unpacking my suitcase and we're at the well, it's the beginning of October right now, so summer wardrobe's going away, it's getting colder and I'm sitting on the floor with my winter jumpers, out, my summer clothes, my suitcase, and I'm just sat there crying because I'm like there's just too much stuff and I don't know where to start and that that is one of those real moments of dysregulation of. It might seem silly, but it's that extra layer on your pile of washing that it just breaks you sometimes. And when we get stuck in that all or nothing thinking we don't see that there's another possibility that we could maybe break this down into smaller tasks. You know, we could take half of it, we could do a quarter of it. So I've. I had my meltdown. I went and looked after myself because I realized, okay, I'm dysregulated right now.

Jenny Adams: 15:41

Cleaning up, putting my washing away, is not going to make me feel any different, because often that's that's behind the perfectionism is, if I do x, y and z, therefore I will feel, and we get stuck in that mindset and we think, well, once I've done that, I'll feel like this. Once I've done that, I'll feel like this. Well, actually, we don't always feel like that once we've done the thing, and often we can find that same feeling without doing the thing. So I might say, okay, well, I'll feel relaxed once I've sorted out my summer and winter wardrobes. Well, actually, maybe if I put that away well, literally close the door and walk away from it and just go and ask my partner to give me a hug, I will feel relaxed.

Jenny Adams: 16:31

So that same feeling that we're chasing isn't always going to be given to us by doing the thing and we can get tricked into this and we can run. You know, I call it like the I'll be happy when syndrome that we get stuck. Or once I've done this, I I'll be happy. Or once I earn this amount, I'll be happy. Or once I've achieved this, once I've done that, I'll be happy. But what happens when we do that? We end up chasing the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing, and then we're just constantly running towards stuff and we're not actually taking a moment now to either regulate ourselves and give us that feeling that we need, or to, yeah, just to look after ourselves and be in the present moment and be like does does my washing need to be put away that badly right now, or do I need to look after myself?

Jackie Baxter: 17:27

yeah, I think that's such a good point and this is in. Perfectionism is something that I'm working on. It was something that I kind of I mean, if you'd have asked me say, like five years ago, a year perfectionist, I would have probably said maybe a little bit, but I would have seen it as a good thing. It was what made me a good musician, it was what made me a conscientious, um, member of staff, it was what made me you know it was I would have seen it as a good quality, and I think I'm now starting to come around to this understanding that actually it's not, and that there is this concept of good enough, and I don't know where that is, because I've never found it in my life before. So I'm I'm hunting for where good enough is, but it's realizing. I think, kind of like you just said, that you know, if we're always striving to be perfect, we are never going to be perfect, because we are never going to be happy with something, because we'll always find something else that we could have done. You know, maybe you know you're doing a painting and you're like, oh, I'll do a bit more, I'll do a bit more, oh, maybe I could do a bit more. It's always going to be something. And then you get to the point where you've done too much and it's like, oh, it's not not perfect, I need to take some away. And you know, in the context of painting, you can't do that, um. So so it's this.

Jackie Baxter: 18:41

Yeah, you know, you're never going to be happy if you're always striving for that perfection. So how can I find a way to be okay with that? I suppose, and that's kind of where I'm at at the moment I'm kind of struggling with this. I want, I want to be free of it, but I'm not quite there, um. So I suppose you know, and in the context of recovery, you know, you said that thing about all or nothing um, you know, recovery is about those little steps, isn't it? You know it's not. Ah, I found the one thing everything's going to be perfect, like I've not met anyone who who that was true for. So you know, this is where I guess it can be really unhealthy, I suppose, in in that sort of context. But yeah, I don't think it's ever a good thing, actually, I think. I think that's what I'm kind of coming to realize. I don't think there's really any situation where perfectionism is a good thing, and I'm not going to edit that out. That's staying in.

Jenny Adams: 19:40

I love it yeah, it's so interesting because I have definitely put I've said it in interviews, I put it on my CV in the past, or it can be a bit of a perfectionist, as if it's a good thing Because and again, if we get praised for this, you know I might have been hired because of that in a previous job. So it makes perfect sense why we would stick to perfectionism traits and I think they are. They stem from a belief of not being either worthy or good enough, or feeling unsafe and needing to control things, that if I have done things perfectly, nothing can go wrong. And it's really interesting that you mentioned that in regards to recovery, because recovery is not perfect, it's messy, and I don't know anyone that's recovered who hasn't had bumps in the road and days where they're like oh my god, have I just reversed everything I've been doing so well? Oh my god, you know what have I done?

Jenny Adams: 21:13

Going through all of that, all of those thoughts, and I'm gonna cough just a sec. Okay, I'm back, I've got a bit of a cold for anyone listening. Um, yeah, we're gonna have those bumps in the road and it's okay. It's okay to have them. And it can be interesting to ask yourself and maybe we could, we could try this with an example with you, if you want is going into. You know how would you feel if things were done a certain way or not, not a certain way? So yeah, if, if you want to, if you want to have a little dive into some compassionate inquiry and belief excavation, do you want to give?

Jackie Baxter: 21:57

that a shot. Yeah, I'm, I'm all for being a guinea pig. Um, it's that vulnerability, isn't it, that I think is important. And maybe this comes with the perfectionism thing, that not wanting to be vulnerable because you're leaving yourself open to being imperfect, I suppose, isn't it?

Jenny Adams: 22:15

um, so yeah, let's do it okay okay, so can you think of an example in well, recently that has been triggering to your perfectionism?

Jackie Baxter: 22:31

yes, I mean the. The obvious example would be the episode that we did recently. Okay, okay, I suppose. So we did it unedited. It was largely pretty good, but it was a little untidy in places.

Jenny Adams: 22:46

Okay, and what kind of feelings or thoughts were coming up around? Leaving it unedited.

Jackie Baxter: 22:55

So it was. I think it was, it was. It was partly that well, I could do better, so I should do better. This idea of what better actually is, you know this, the sort of perfect um, like you were saying earlier, with you know if, if there's a little scuff in some audio somewhere, unless it's really you know, unless it's someone coughing really loudly for a long time, which could be triggering, it's probably not a problem. And I can logically tell myself all of these things that it was a good interview, that you know it was fine, it flowed nicely, there was nothing that really needed to be edited, but it was that not knowing it was that I didn't spend two hours going through it, listening to it, fixing every tiny little thing. That didn't matter, but I would have fixed it anyway.

Jenny Adams: 23:45

And letting it go okay. So I'm hearing. There's two things in here there's a belief I could do better, so I should better and potentially some fear around the unknown of leaving it out there naked, unedited and not knowing if there's something wrong with it.

Jackie Baxter: 24:08

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Jenny Adams: 24:12

Which one of those feels most prevalent?

Jackie Baxter: 24:21

Hmm, which one of those feels most prevalent? Probably they're both quite prevalent, actually, probably the. I could do better, therefore I should. If there are hours in the day, then I should use them to better myself or my whatever it is I'm doing, I suppose okay okay, so how far back does this go?

Jackie Baxter: 24:47

oh, a very long way. Okay, can you remember? Definitely, definitely back to sort of when I was a teenager, when I was at school, maybe beyond that, um, but certainly, yeah, certainly kind of young teenager, I think okay, and did anything happen around that sort of time?

Jackie Baxter: 25:11

um, I've been nothing particularly abnormal beyond being a at school being a teenager, I was a geek. I wasn't cool. Um, I played the cello and I listened to classical music. So there were people at school that didn't like me. Um, I mean, that might have been when I last didn't worry about what people thought about me. I was quite happy to be uncool. I mean, it's not like I really care about being cool, but you know that kind of like worrying about what other people think. I feel like maybe at that point I didn't so much, whereas now I don't want to, so I, I, I should, I should do better.

Jenny Adams: 26:05

Did you feel that when you were a teenager?

Jackie Baxter: 26:09

yeah. I think so okay um, yeah, I definitely remember it being a sort of a thing with school work. Um, certainly certainly my parents, you know, always wanting me to do my best, um, and sort of pushing me to to do better, to to try harder.

Jenny Adams: 26:30

Um, you know, probably with with good intentions, okay so if your parents were pushing you then to do your best, as as parents do and you know this is we're not pointing the finger at anybody here, but this can be interesting where some of these beliefs come from. What did you make it mean if I ever doing things perfectly?

Jackie Baxter: 26:55

um, I think that was maybe the problem. I was always pushing myself to do things perfectly, but I never was. So I needed to keep doing them more in order to be perfect, but that never happened. So the cycle.

Jenny Adams: 27:17

Okay, and how do you think your parents would have reacted if you had done things perfectly?

Jackie Baxter: 27:25

I don't know. I mean, I suppose I wanted them to be proud of me, to you know, respect and love me, um, like you want from parents, I suppose. And I suppose I thought that if I was perfect then they would okay, I just want to check in.

Jenny Adams: 27:50

Is this okay to keep looking into this, because I know this yeah this is interesting, okay, okay. So your parents would be proud of you if you were doing things well, if you're doing things perfectly, and what does that mean from your parents that they'd be proud of you?

Jackie Baxter: 28:15

hmm, that's interesting. Um, I mean, maybe it's that search for affection, um that I thought if, if they were proud of me and maybe it's not just my parents, maybe it was other people around me but I thought, if, if I, yeah, if they were proud of me, then I would get something in return. I suppose I'm not sure what that something is.

Jenny Adams: 28:44

Okay, you've just said affection, which can be obviously tied into love there, and this is why we're poking at this a little, because what I'm hearing is there can be a belief with perfectionism if I do things perfectly, therefore, I will be loved and I'll be accepted yeah, so maybe it's that acceptance, you know, maybe affection and love as well, but maybe acceptance is more, um, although the irony being actually acceptance for being imperfect would, uh, would maybe be more accepting, um, uh, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Jenny Adams: 29:34

so it's that search for acceptance, for affection for, yeah, all of that sort of stuff and if there's also the counter belief then that if you aren't worthy of love if you don't do things right, if you don't do things perfectly. You said you were probably an early teenager. But if that goes back any further, even if you were an early teenager, how do you think they would feel? A youngish teenager feeling that they're not worthy of love and affection from their parents?

Jackie Baxter: 30:09

I mean, being a teenager is difficult enough anyway, like it's it's really, I feel, for kids now. Like, um, you know, I think it's possibly more difficult now than it was when I was a kid with with the whole social media thing. Um, you know it's, it's difficult.

Jenny Adams: 30:27

There's an awful lot going on as a teenager isn't there or the kid in general would it be okay to check in with your body here because, notice, I asked how would you think it would feel and you told me a story. So how do you think it would feel to be a teenager that feels unworthy?

Jackie Baxter: 30:55

yeah, difficult, uncomfortable, looking for ways to either feel worthy or to, I suppose, distract yourself from that, mm-hmm so how do you think it would feel?

Jenny Adams: 31:15

What are you noticing that's going on now?

Jackie Baxter: 31:20

Yeah, I'm definitely feeling kind of squirmy in my stomach. I can feel myself. I mean, I guess I feel that I'm gently rocking myself. I'm gently rocking myself and this is something that I think I do when I feel on edge or you know, like I need to regulate myself, so I can feel myself doing that more than I was when we started speaking okay, okay, so there's a want to soothe the discomfort here.

Jenny Adams: 31:52

Yeah, would it feel okay to maybe welcome in this squirmy feeling in your stomach and, rather than needing to change it, just let it be there and get curious?

Jackie Baxter: 32:07

like how is it? Um, it's definitely there. It's not overpowering.

Jenny Adams: 32:19

Is it moving?

Jackie Baxter: 32:23

It feels a bit more static. Okay, for now.

Jenny Adams: 32:32

Okay, and if this sensation could speak, what would it want to say?

Jackie Baxter: 32:41

It feels very stuck. It feels like it would like to, maybe, would like to move, would like to move forward, would like, yeah, to become unstuck.

Jenny Adams: 32:55

Would like, yeah, to become unstuck okay, so it would like to be moved, changed unstuck, okay, and can you? Can you give it the opportunity to do that?

Jackie Baxter: 33:13

yeah, so how do I do that?

Jenny Adams: 33:15

so tune in and really ask what it wants. Does it want you to stretch? Does it want you to pay attention? What does it want with compassion from you?

Jackie Baxter: 33:33

I feel like just giving it a bit of space there. It has slightly moved, so it's definitely still there, but it's less static, okay, less stuck. Yeah, I can feel that I've hunched over as well.

Jenny Adams: 33:54

Okay, so people listening will obviously not be able to see this, but uh, yeah, I've kind of hunched over my body while we've been talking, I think listening might be able to hear the slight change in your voice as well, possibly yeah, so is there an active element here that's brought you in on yourself that it doesn't want to, because often, if we're feeling like we're shrinking, if we're in that dorsal um polyvagal state, doing the opposite is often too much for our nervous system. So, as you're doing, just allowing, allowing it space, would it feel okay to just check in now and see, see how it is?

Jackie Baxter: 34:41

yeah, it feels much less so. I feel like I haven't like stretched my arms out or anything, but I've definitely slightly uncurled myself a little bit and I'm still. I'm still doing the gentle rocking, but I feel like I've done a bit less of that. Now it's a little bit, a little bit less movement there, but I feel a bit more comfortable sitting up. In fact, I just felt my shoulders move back.

Jackie Baxter: 35:20

I just saw an openness in your face then yeah, yeah, I just felt that that was quite intense actually, um, yeah how are you doing now? Yeah, I feel, I feel much more like that ball of whatever it was. It's a lot smaller, okay, I think it's. You know, it's maybe a baked bean rather than a melon. Now, um, I love that, um, yeah.

Jenny Adams: 36:02

Yeah, it's interesting how just kind of sitting with that, it moves around changes, goes through this kind of like transformation almost and if that and if that sort of not that, that squirmy feeling in your stomach, how you felt maybe when you're a teenager and you were starting to make these beliefs that if I do x, y and z perfectly, therefore, I will get proud parents, acceptance, love.

Jenny Adams: 36:34

That has a physical feeling, you know, and we'll hold on to that. And this is often where the long covid and the me and the um, fibromyalgia and all of these things come into place, because we're still holding on to that. The fact that you quite quickly identified something in your body is telling you something when we looked at a belief means there's still some stuff here and and you know it's a bit like an onion we can kind of peel back these layers, um, but the only way out really is is through, is is feeling this stuff, and it doesn't mean you have to just sit with all of your discomfort forever, but not fighting it so much and just giving it a little bit of space to be felt, because what would you have done normally with this sort of sensation?

Jackie Baxter: 37:33

I would either have ignored it and pushed on through, or I would have told myself to stop being ridiculous, or, um yeah, shut it down. Shut it down, steamroll it over it okay, and does that work?

Jenny Adams: 37:48

no, not at all. So what? What did you just learn from that process of actually letting it be here?

Jackie Baxter: 37:56

that it that it moves through if you give it the space to do it.

Jenny Adams: 38:00

Yeah, yeah, and obviously we're recording this so you could potentially go back and look at how long that took. But generally the the wave of an emotion takes about 90 seconds to move through and I think I've had some clients who've said they've they've had a really tough emotion. They've literally just counted for 90 seconds and said I can get through 90 seconds of discomfort and it it will. It will come up and it drops down again and it leaves generally. So, yeah, how many of us can actually say, okay, I can deal with 90 seconds of discomfort? It's the reason I have a cold shower every day for 30 seconds, because I stand there and I'm like I don't want to do this.

Jackie Baxter: 38:43

I can do hard things yeah and um, I think part of you know, part of part of the sort of discomfort if you know that you've got a time limit on it, then that makes it a lot easier, doesn't it? You know, if I think, gosh, I've got to sit here and I don't know how long it's going to take, you know, if I'm gonna, maybe it's coming back to that all or nothing thing that we were talking about a moment ago. Actually, it's like, well, if I'm gonna do it, I've got to do it right. So I've got to align myself like half a day, because I don't know how long it's gonna take, and and who can find half a day? Um, whereas, if you know, okay, this could take maybe 90 seconds, it might be a little longer, but you know, I, this whole process could take like five, ten minutes, that's.

Jenny Adams: 39:29

That's a bit more manageable um, yeah, and if we push it away it gets bigger and it takes longer to deal with. Like I was always that person. I've I've always been quite an emotional, sensitive person. I would swallow down the tears, I'd keep them in and I would try so bloody hard to keep all of this in and then something tiny would happen and it was an explosion. And I'd be in a meeting, in work or you know it was a really inappropriate time and I would just be sobbing, I couldn't breathe and people around me are like, oh my God, what's wrong with her? But it's because I'd kept. I'd kept it in, I kept it in, I kept it in and it's like one tiny thing just bang too much.

Jenny Adams: 40:12

Whereas now, if I feel a little bit of something, I'm like just just cry, like I was crying yesterday. I think I cried about four times yesterday. I went to see my mum and, yeah, she was just like what's wrong? What's happened? What's triggered you? Nothing. I just feel sad, I just need to cry and I just need to be comforted.

Jenny Adams: 40:36

And she is starting to understand more now that there's a feeling sometimes and there doesn't necessarily always need to be a reason, and especially when we've had trauma. Once we kind of allow those floodgates to open and say I'm OK with being in this discomfort. You don't always know why. Sometimes you're just going to feel sad, sometimes you're going to feel angry, and it's following your body a little bit like you did, just going in and asking what does this need? And often it wants to be heard or it wants space to be felt. It just wants some kind of acknowledgement. Sometimes it will be a bubbling up of a reaction of I wish I could say this from that time um, unspoken words, that sort of thing. But your body is smarter than our heads, so you know it's allowing yourself to really drop in and just ask your body, ask that sensation, what do you need? It doesn't need to make any sense, but if it tells you something it will, 99.9 percent of the time, be the right thing yeah.

Jackie Baxter: 41:49

So if we find ourselves doing this kind of you know, the perfectionism spiral, um, where you know, oh, I've got 20 million things on my to-do list. I don't know where to start. So, again, the all or nothing, um, and you know, we, we feel it in our bodies. If we listen to our bodies, um, we feel at the head, we get that overwhelm. Sometimes certainly I do when I'm thinking I don't know where to start. This is such a big task, it's got to be done perfectly.

Jackie Baxter: 42:18

Um, and actually, you know what you said a moment ago about the all or nothing thing. I'm just thinking, oh, my goodness, this is, you know, this is absolutely me. Uh, this is why I can never get started on my to-do list and I'll sit there on facebook for two hours instead of starting, because, instead of doing one thing, then you know, it's like everything's got to get done, um, so so when we find ourselves in this kind of position and it's going to look different to different people, but that you know, kind of perfectionisming, what what's the best thing to do? Is it to sit back and say where do I feel this? Give myself a bit of space, what's my body telling me?

Jenny Adams: 42:55

or are there other strategies that can also be useful so I would say the first thing is to check in with your body and notice are you dysregulated? Because exactly what you just said. Oh my god, I don't know where to start. I've got a million things on my to-do list. That overwhelm is most of the time a dysregulation. And then we get stuck in a freeze response and you go I'll just procrastinate and go on Facebook for two hours because we don't have the motivation to get up and do anything. So when we are overwhelmed, regulate so that can literally be.

Jenny Adams: 43:33

Uh, if you are sitting on your computer on Facebook noticing I'm sitting on, I've been here for half an hour, I don't want to move, I need to pee, but I don't want to move, okay, take your eyes off the screen, start to look around your room, start to just take some gentle movements. You're orienting yourself to then not being a threat. And if you're in a freeze response, that's a very, very old part of our nervous system. That is the only thing we can do when we're about to get killed. Basically, and our body is telling us that, which is why we're sat on facebook for two hours. If you start to look around and go okay, there's no threats here. Start to gently move your body, unfreezing yourself, you know, stretching, even just taking some deeper breaths, maybe laughing out loud, anything that would say to your body there is not a threat here right now. And then, once you're in that, if you're in that dorsal state, we kind of need to move into that sympathetic. And that's when we're like the doing mode, that's when you can start to go right, okay, I've unfrozen, let's get some shit done.

Jenny Adams: 44:45

And that would be a really good time to then look at your to-do list when you're feeling a little bit more regulated and say, okay, what's the priority, how can I make this smaller? Where do I start? And if your mind is just going, oh, my god, I don't know, I can't go back to regulating. And there's, there's loads of tools, you know grounding, orienting um, titration, resourcing, all sorts of somatic um, nervous system, regulation tools. They're going to be different for everyone. Some people like certain things.

Jenny Adams: 45:18

So find what works. You unfreeze yourself, regulate first, and then look at your to-do list and start to ask, yeah, how do I make this smaller? Does this need to be done today? Does this need to be done by me? What's the priority, what's urgent? And you know there are lots of practical tips, like you know, writing lists and reminders and all of that sort of stuff. But I honestly, hand on heart, believe you need to start with the regulation first, because you're just going to be going into a task dysregulated and it won't work. And then you'll be like, well, I've tried all the things, it's not the things, it's, it's, it's the nervous system yeah that's so interesting yes, yeah, absolutely.

Jackie Baxter: 46:07

Compassion, I think, is so important. Yeah, it's so interesting what you were just saying, because there are some times where I'll sit down and I'll be like, right, what are we starting with? Okay, and I'll just work myself through my to-do list, boom, productivity unlocked. And then there were some days where I, just as I described a moment ago, I just sit there and I'm like I don't know where to start. Okay, I'll procrastinate, I'll do it in a minute, oh, I'll do this, I'll do that, you know, and and I just can't seem to get myself started. So that's, that's actually because I'm unregulated, dysregulated in those situations.

Jackie Baxter: 46:41

Um, what I found quite useful for me is understanding. Are there different things I can do in order to set myself up for a day where I'm a bit more regulated? So I know that if I get outside, you know and you can't do this every day, necessarily but if I get up early, I get my arse out of bed and I get down and have a swim first thing, especially if the sun is shining, but even if it's not, then I'm killing it for the rest of the day. I'm amazing, I'm on fire, I am yeah, productivity, you know kind of king, whereas if I have one of those days where maybe I haven't slept very well, I wake up, I scroll on my phone for a bit, I, you know, have my breakfast at the wrong time, or I, you know, have a hot chocolate for breakfast or whatever you know, it's like I'm setting myself up already for this kind of like you know day where it's just not gonna happen.

Jenny Adams: 47:33

Um, so certainly for me, certainly, setting up my day in the right way, um, can be really helpful yeah, and I think it's also important to say that, but two things one, that we are cyclical beings, so especially women who are still menstruating, and men can follow, um, the moon cycle or um, you know anyone who's not menstruating. So we are going to go through different phases. So when we're in like our ovulation phase, for example, that's our full moon. That's when we're out there, we want to talk to people, we're we're very social, we've got high oestrogen levels, like we can do anything. That's not going to be when you're going to go through your to do list. Necessarily, that's when you're going to be recording podcasts and, you know, networking and socializing. At the opposite end of that, when you're having your bleed. That is when you might get some of those last little niggly tasks done. But you're also not going to want to talk to anybody and you're going to be quite introverted and want to hibernate. And you're going to be quite introverted and want to hibernate and being able to track your cycles and look at where you feel better in your cycle. When is the time to organize your diary, when is the time to socialize, when is the time to go through your emails and sort them out rather than trying to do things that aren't going to be helping ourselves. We're forcing ourselves to be social when we want to be at home hibernating. It just doesn't work. So really leaning into when you function best, doing what in your cycle, can be really, really helpful.

Jenny Adams: 49:14

And secondly, this whole idea of how productive we are like're not robots, we're not machines. So, yes, we have to get stuff done, but like our value, our worthiness, how, how loved we are is nothing to do with how productive we are. And I think in this I don't know western modern society, whatever you want to say we are so conditioned to equal. Well, the more I do, the better I am. The better I am as a human, the more loved I am, whatever bullshit we put on it and like, let's unpick that and realize we are human beings first, and then the stuff comes secondary. So look after the body first, because most of the stuff we do, for most of us it's not life or death. If we can't do a thing, no one's gonna. No one's gonna die generally, unless you're a doctor or something. But yeah, so look after, look after ourselves first, and also knowing that rest is productive. So if we're going, going, going, going going and we keep pushing.

Jenny Adams: 50:23

Our work quality gets worse and worse the longer we work. So it is really helpful to stop and have breaks and not feel guilty for it, because we actually get more done. So I've got a um a mantra on my remarkable hair um well, it's called. It says the less I do, the more I make, and I'm really a fan of that. We don't have to work like 30 hours a day in order to be good business. People be good humans.

Jackie Baxter: 50:59

The less we do often, the more productive we can be, because we're focusing on what actually we're good at yeah, and this was something that I really struggled with when I wasn't well, because I couldn't do stuff, so I felt unworthy. Um, and it's coming back to this. You know, your most important thing is that you are human, you are you, and everything else, as you say, is secondary, and you know this ties in really nicely with the perfectionism thing, doesn't it? Because you know what, what, what even is that you know you're, you're perfect as you are, um, and that you know that. That productivity, the things that you want to do in your life, you know that they're important to you, but the healthier you are, the more regulated you are, the better you're going to do them anyway yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.

Jenny Adams: 51:51

and often that perfectionism is is just like having that compassion for ourself and just asking is this coming from me not feeling safe? Do I want to control something? Am I dysregulated? Do I feel I'm not enough? Here, and just you know, hand on heart, just giving yourself an internal hug and saying to yourself, however, you want to talk to yourself in a kind way to just say it's okay, I know you're trying to do this to feel safe or whatever the thing is, it will be okay, let's look after this body first and then we'll attempt the thing. So, really just finding that compassion because I know it can be really hard when you're unwell and you aren't able to be productive, and if you don't have that belief that your worthiness is tied into how productive you are, you're going to feel pretty shit. You are still a very valid, lovable human, even if you can't do things.

Jenny Adams: 52:54

And maybe looking at all the things, all the ways that you bring joy to your family, to your life, to people around you, and, yeah, just finding that compassion for yourself, because you're not a machine yeah, absolutely, I think that's a beautiful place to leave it.

Jackie Baxter: 53:14

Jenny, thank you so much. This has been really useful for me, um, although it was definitely quite, uh, quite scary putting myself out there, um. So, thank you, um, and yeah, thank you for all your advice and for taking the time to speak to me again well done for being vulnerable and thank you.

Jenny Adams: 53:33

Thank you for sharing that. Hopefully that's helped a few people that are listening.