156 - Nadyne McKie - Empowering Caregivers and Children Through Compassion and Play

When Nadyne McKie, a psychotherapist and yoga therapist, first faced the challenges of Long COVID with her own child, it was a journey that reshaped her understanding of care. Join us as she shares not only her professional insights but also her personal story, offering a unique perspective on the emotional burdens carried by families navigating this condition. We'll unpack the critical role caregivers play in supporting their children through fluctuating health, all while managing their own stress and advocating for their child's needs.

Imagine the pressure of balancing societal expectations with a child's health, where school attendance and extracurricular activities often clash with the need for rest and recovery. Nadyne helps explore the importance of validating children's bodily signals and the broader impact of parental well-being on young ones' recovery paths. We'll discuss how creating a calm, supportive environment can be a cornerstone for healing, where simple acts like mindful breathing and micro-breaks can transform daily struggles into opportunities for growth.

For those seeking practical strategies, Nadyne introduces playful and creative tools that strengthen the bond between parent and child. These activities not only foster resilience but also offer a powerful counterbalance to the often-draining effects of screen time. Nadyne's new book emerges as a beacon of guidance, filled with insights and advice for caregivers seeking to empower themselves and their children through the complexities of Long COVID. Listen in to discover how embracing these techniques can pave the way for a more resilient and supportive journey for both children and their caregivers.

Links:
Purchase "Breathe, Rest, Recover" by Nadyne McKie & Fiona Agombar
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For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Chapters

• 0:00 Supporting Children With Long COVID
• 14:46 Challenges in Supporting Children's Recovery
• 25:19 Navigating Support and Healing Playfully
• 31:36 Promoting Well-Being in Children
• 38:07 Managing Children's Screen Time and Energy
• 51:47 Navigating Long COVID Support and Empowerment

Transcript

Jackie Baxter: 0:56

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Long Covid Podcast. I am delighted to welcome back Nadne McKee, and we are sort of going to continue our conversation from last time and we're going to be talking a little bit more about kids with Long Covid and what it means to be someone who cares for a child with Long COVID, and a bit more about the book that has just been released. So yeah, welcome back, nadine. It's wonderful to see you again.

Nadyne McKie: 1:27

Very lovely to see you as well, Jackie. Thank you so much for having me back so.

Jackie Baxter: 1:32

I think most people will probably have heard our previous episode, but just for anyone who's coming in kind of fresh and new today, can you just give us like this 30 second kind of who are you and what do you do?

Nadyne McKie: 1:44

well, I'm a psychotherapist, I'm a yoga therapist.

Nadyne McKie: 1:48

I predominantly work in in mental health services, but I also run a private practice and my kind of area of specialism is management of chronic illness, and that encompasses so much, because, of course, that also encompasses working with and supporting people as they navigate their journey of recovering and healing, and for many people, that that means that they're dealing with depression and anxiety as well, and also having to deal with the stigma, perhaps and the labelling, of having had a chronic illness or still experiencing a chronic illness, and what that means for them in terms of how they advocate for themselves, perhaps at work or for children, which I know we're going to be speaking about today.

Nadyne McKie: 2:38

It's about looking at what that means for a child. How is that impacting their lives? And, I think, more importantly, in some ways that involves looking at how the carers of that child or children are also being impacted and and how they can better support themselves and that was something that, for me, is not only something that I'm very, very interested in anyway because of my work and my research, but also because it's affected me personally.

Nadyne McKie: 3:09

Not only have I had post viral fatigue and non COVID and consider myself somebody that will kind of live with that and the recovery and management of that for the rest of my life probably I you can recover, but you are always aware of the after effects of of dealing with that kind of experience in your life, um, but also because my son too had long covid and, as I've just said, you know, we we deal, deal with and we manage that to this day and I work with lots of children that have long COVID symptoms and have fatigue based symptoms, and I also work with their parents to support them, because that's such an essential In fact I'd say that's the vital element of recovery is how we support the carers of children with long COVID.

Jackie Baxter: 4:04

You know, we obviously focus in on the experience of the person who is unwell, you know, because they're the one who's experiencing it. But you know, I think we often forget how much that impacts those around them. You know, in my experience it had a huge impact on my partner. He wasn't personally ill, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't massively, massively impacted by the fact that I was unwell, you know, and I wouldn't have described him as my carer, but you know, there were times where he kind of was. Now, that's a very different situation to your own and the situation of of many people who have a child who are unwell. You know, in that situation a parent really well, a parent's a carer anyway um, and then they become this sort of extra level of carer, I suppose, when their child is unwell longer term. And then in your situation, you were also unwell.

Nadyne McKie: 5:06

I wasn't unwell at the same time but, interestingly, what did really become? What I became very aware of was how impactful for me watching somebody you know, observing somebody that I love dearly, that I wish nothing else for than to be able to remove this thing from him, this fatigue and these other symptoms, and I think that many parents feel the same. You know, we would do anything to not see our children unwell, to have them healthy and and able to do the things they wish to do. That had such an impact on me and I did experience some relapse over that period, because the stress and the anxiety and the uncertainty and dealing with the advocacy of him and how he was going to school or not going to school, as the case may be, you know all those things have a massively dramatic effect on your own energy levels, and I see this time and time again, and I've been working recently with another child with long covid and actually, you know, through talking with their parents, it's very apparent that that is also something that they're experiencing and they voiced their anxiety. They voiced how difficult they find it to kind of watch their child go in and out of these patterns of relapse and recovery and how difficult and challenging it is when your child has had so much energy, you know, and been able to do all the things and all the sports and all the you know, off to school. And the normal in inverted commas you know the normal daily lives of children. When that's changed to the extent that your child can't attend school and is unable to take part in those types of activities they were once, you know, really enjoying that, the drive to kind of want them to be back there can be very, very challenging to to hold and care for them in the same, for them in that way that they need whilst they're recovering, because it impacts us also so much, not only with the logistics of caring for a child who's unable to attend school, but also because you know we deeply care for these little beings and we don't like to see them suffering, we don't like to see them in pain. So we want to remove it as quickly as possible and get them well quickly.

Nadyne McKie: 7:48

And you know there's so much in this topic.

Nadyne McKie: 7:51

I think about how we care for children with long COVID and I think this probably goes across the board in terms of if we find ourselves supporting others.

Nadyne McKie: 8:01

It goes back to that old cliched saying of you can't pour from an empty cup, and what we do find often with parents and this is what I was finding is that I was depleting very quickly and, of course, that for me is the kind of signal for the fatigue symptoms and finding myself, you know, experiencing that again. So, yeah, it's a very real problem and I think it's a vital part, a very vital part, of the recovery process and certainly makes something that I mention in the chapter in the book when I'm talking about. You know well how do we nurture these little ones as they're recovering, and actually a lot. You know well how do we nurture these little ones as they're recovering, and actually a lot of it is how do we nurture ourselves while we're nurturing the little ones recovering one of the things that I learned myself while I was recovering was that we had to learn to put ourselves first.

Jackie Baxter: 8:56

You know many not everybody, but many people who become unwell are the types of people who are, who are givers, you know carers, who are, you know, often putting other people first, saying yes to everything. Um, you know I that that was certainly the position I was in, and learning that I had to put myself first and that it wasn't selfish to do that. It was actually something that we needed to do and I'm much better at doing that now. I'm not perfect, but I'm much better at that.

Jackie Baxter: 9:27

But you know, I mean, this must be very difficult as a parent anyway, to put yourself first because you know you obviously have this responsibility to your children. But when you then have a child who is not just unwell for a week, where they have a cold and, oh, they're off school this week and this is difficult, but this is kind of a longer term thing where you know, week after week, month after month, you're having to care for them, that must be incredibly difficult to put yourself first, even some of the time. To put yourself first, even some of the time to put yourself first while you're doing that.

Nadyne McKie: 10:03

I think you've hit some really important points there and I think it's also just generally, as you were saying, a struggle as a parent. We do prioritize our children, and as we should really, because you know we brought them into the world so and we are here to care for them. And you know you mentioned children. You know children being off school, maybe with a cold or something, and actually it's. There's so much to this topic and one of the things that I think you and I have spoken about before is being believed as well with what we're experiencing, and I think that, because a child who doesn't have the energy to take part in normal daily routine and activities is such a difficult concept to grasp, you know, when we may have only experienced them as that bundle of energy doing all sorts of different things. In fact, maybe they they might even be, dare I say, over scheduled a lot of the time. Children over stimulated in terms of they are now bombarded with, you know, youtube and online, this and everything going on and expectations at school to achieve certain grades or get into certain schools and take this exam, and there's so much going on in children's lives that is already kind of low radar, stressful, and so when they're unable to do that, it's really really difficult to witness that, and not only, as I said, logistically, because so many people might be working as well. You know, life is busy working parents, children off at school, and when they have a cold maybe we send them in, you know, because you know I can't stay at home, I've got to be at work or whatever it is, and so we kind of find ourselves in this position sometimes and I write about this a bit in the book about the importance of believing your child when they say they're not feeling well, and actually getting curious about what is their experience, what are, what are they noticing within themselves? Because I think that our very busy lives and the way that we live and our society as well, it almost celebrates our ability to push on through and keep going and go into work when you're not feeling well and continue to go to school when you're not feeling well. And you and I have been talking about, you know, this kind of school environment that is well, well talked about in terms of this, like a kind of pond of germs right going round in the winter, just round and round and round, and the difficulty of keeping your child home to rest and convalesce is a huge societal problem, I think, just in general, when it comes to illness and how we need to recover, how our bodies need to really recover.

Nadyne McKie: 12:56

And something that we touch upon in the book is the disbelief, as we were talking about, the disbelief of, especially around fatigue-based conditions and things that maybe the media even portrayed as malingerers, you know, or people that need just a good nap or whatever, and that goes within the medical community too, and the gaslighting that some people have experienced. Now I don't want to tar the entire medical profession with that brush, because I personally know many, many healthcare professionals and doctors, consultants. My own pediatric consultant is amazing and was the best person that we could have had advocating for my son during this period of time. I'm so immensely grateful to him and appreciative of his wisdom, guidance and professional opinion about fatigue. You know his knowledge and the fact that he truly believed and saw for himself and advised us accordingly and gave us some great advice. And you know, this advice that he gave me is in the book and I think it's super important that we also acknowledge that for some people that advice may not be forthcoming and they might be meeting an almost, you know, a battle to explain what their child is experiencing, because just that experience of fatigue is very hard to describe to somebody who hasn't experienced it and not being believed has its own impact on us, you know, on our nervous system, on our stress levels. Impact on us, you know, on our nervous system, on our stress levels, and when we don't believe our children especially, that has a long term effect.

Nadyne McKie: 14:47

I wrote about this in the children's chapter. You know that there is a consequence, sadly, to this, and we, we might in effect be almost encouraging that ignoring of our own body signals, signals if we don't listen and get curious when our children tell us things that they're feeling and they're experiencing, because it's in that awareness, in that curiosity you're almost about what we're feeling that allows us to have those first signals when we're not feeling well. And if we ignore them, we know the consequences, as you were saying, that those types of people that can and do and will push on through and spin all the plates and take on too much and just keep going and keep going. Quite often they get to a stage where they cannot keep going anymore and we might need to allow ourselves and our children to listen to the whispers and have those whispers believed. I know that's not easy for many reasons.

Jackie Baxter: 15:52

You know, I think we often don't give children enough credit. I think children are very intuitive and they learn by what they see as well. So if you know kids see the people that they look up to their parents, obviously, but maybe their teachers at school or you know whoever it is that they are you know seeing, you know regularly, if they are seeing these people kind of push through oh mum's gone to work but she's not well. Oh my teacher's had a cold all week but she's been there, kind of thing, if they're seeing this all the time, then they, they see that that's what people do and then that's what they learn. You know, I suppose it's it's about our actions and our words kind of matching up, isn't it a lot of the time?

Nadyne McKie: 16:40

kind of practicing what we preach, yeah, and whilst I really advocate for that and encourage that in people, I'm also very aware that you know people have very busy lives and some people work and will only get paid if they're in work and and so that is another added challenge to this. And let's look back at you know we're talking about children today, children missing school. I mean, this was a huge element of challenge for me when my son was unwell and I know that lots of other parents are going through the same thing. The school and the pressure to be in school is really really difficult to counteract, as it were. To kind of advocate for your child's need to rest, and in the book I talk about, you know how phased returns to school and almost needing as a parent, sometimes hopefully some there are now, you know, more people aware and engaged on this topic and understanding of this condition. But if they're not, there needs to be almost like psychoeducation given by the parent about how their child needs to respond or be responded to, should I say, if they say they're feeling fatigued.

Nadyne McKie: 17:59

You know I've often had this conversation, especially around things like PE, with people where a lot of children love PE and sports and sports has, you know, is very much a big part of school life. But what if the child can't take part in that? And often there is kind of a I don't know. It's the old chestnut, isn't it? Your mum writing you a letter or your dad writing you a letter to get you out of PE? Back in my day I used to write my own letters, you know cheeky, but it's difficult when there is pressure to attend school, for learning, to be in the team that you might have been in, you know, winning goals, winning matches, part of the school sports team, and not be able to do that, not be able to participate during that healing, recovery phase, and how a parent has to almost, perhaps sometimes even put aside their own wishes and desires for their child to. I really want them back in there because they love it and they enjoy it and it's part of their daily school life. And and actually to say, you know, I think I know what's best for my child at this time is that there needs to be a real management of the energy that they do have and a prioritization of how that energy can be spent, because when we're in that recovery period and for children especially managing the energy they have, can be so, so difficult and it can be so amazing to see a day when they, oh, they've got loads of energy. This is great. You know, we'll go here or we'll do this, or they can go back to school today.

Nadyne McKie: 19:39

And I'm not going to say always, but sometimes the inevitable kind of relapse and that relapse and recovery cycle can in itself be very stressful to the child, to the school who are expecting attendance, to the parents who are trying to get their child well and want nothing more and they want life to be able to function as it did. And it might not be. It's a really difficult time and I speak from personal experience and the experience of working with so many parents and children that are going through this and trying to manage their own recovery and recovery of their own child as well. It is not easy, but it is possible and it requires an awful lot of compassion for yourself and, as you say, prioritization of our own self-care, getting support for ourselves. I would say that is a one time, you know, a time especially to seek additional support in your life if you can, whether that's through therapy or whatever works for you. You know, whatever speaks to you and your need for support, whether it's from other family members. But trying to do this alone, without support, is incredibly depleting and will have an impact on your child.

Nadyne McKie: 20:58

But just to say you know that is something that I wonder if we acknowledge that how we are affects our child and you and I have spoken about this before you know that kind of nervous system to nervous system response and how, if we are calm and grounded and in a, in a space where we're able to be very present with our child and we're not perhaps overworked, overwhelmed, stressed, those types of things have a significant impact on how the child can then approach their experience and our nervous systems.

Nadyne McKie: 21:38

You know they speak to each other in that energetic way which might sound very woo woo, but we kind of know this on some level because we've all had that experience of going into a room with a crowd of people and chatting to people and just kind of feeling like, oh, I'm getting a kind of off feeling about you know a certain person, maybe what they're saying or or how they are with us. You know these types of things we have experience of in our lives. This is why we can naturally gravitate towards people that we connect with. We even use that word. Connection, and and that's what it's about is connecting with our child in a way that allows and supports their experience and their experience of recovery. And we need to do that ideally and I'm not saying it's easy, but ideally from a place where we ourselves are supporting ourselves to feel calm and grounded.

Jackie Baxter: 22:30

Yeah, we said earlier about how long COVID is as soon as this kind of invisible illness, because you know it is a lot of the time and you know, I think you and I have found it difficult enough to articulate how we are feeling our own symptoms as we go through this. And we are adults, you know, who have had experiences and are able to articulate things in a way that a child isn't. You know they're very intuitive, but you know, in terms of articulating, how do you feel? You know what? What are you? You know this sort of thing.

Jackie Baxter: 23:03

You know that they're going to find it very difficult, I think, often to articulate that sort of thing and to communicate that you know to someone that they love and are close to, let alone somebody, say, at school, who often they might feel like they're being judged by.

Jackie Baxter: 23:19

You know, maybe they're trying to explain to their teacher why they really need to go and just lay down for 10 minutes, or they can't do their you know their sports, or why they haven't done their homework because they spent all night crashed out on the sofa, having been at school all day or something like that, and being able to communicate that using language that an adult will understand. You know, I think that would be very difficult for any child to do, but particularly when they are unwell. So again, it's coming back to that kind of communication, I suppose, isn't it? And I suppose that then puts a lot of pressure on the parent to do it when they don't necessarily really understand exactly what the child is feeling, because maybe the child can't communicate it to the parent that easily. Um, so it's very, very difficult I guess for everybody, isn't it? And you know, you say, you know, believe your child and maybe sometimes that is quite difficult to do because you're not them absolutely.

Nadyne McKie: 24:14

I think you hit upon some really important points there. And it's not easy and and that's and it's not easy often for the child. You know there might be many expectations placed on on the child that they need to be able to to do many, many different things, and when they can't, you know that can affect their ability also to to communicate how they're feeling. They want to be well as well. They don't, they don't want to be most of the time anyway. Generally speaking, they do want to feel better and the thing that comes through for me when I'm working with people is the need for advocacy for your child.

Nadyne McKie: 24:52

Um, generally speaking with schools, but also with doctors as well, you know we need to to be able to explain what our child's been experiencing, explain how long it's been going on for, how it's affecting their life, and then be able to do that with our own energy, which is in the in the ups and downs of dealing with recovery, um, for our children and and the actual illness itself. That can be really, really difficult. We might have tried so many different things. We might be constantly searching for that, you know, magic kind of cure, um, the thing that's going to make them feel better.

Nadyne McKie: 25:29

The thousands of supplements, the change in diets, the you know, trying this, that and the other, because show me a parent who won't try just about everything to help their child to feel better and yet, almost dare I say it, in that quest, that can create an even more stressful environment and confusion and overwhelm both for the parent and the child.

Nadyne McKie: 25:57

Now I'm not saying don't do those things, but I'm I'm saying sometimes we need a very supportive space in which to kind of allow ourselves the ability to talk about these things first of all, and and understand and be understood and be heard that this is a very real experience for many parents and children nowadays and it is something that needs more understanding so that there is the support in place which currently I don't feel that there is enough of, and that's a real, real, real problem and I loved what you said earlier about um, not necessarily feeling like an adult, because I think that part of the um beauty I guess for want of a better word part of the lovely thing about writing this chapter in the book was that it allowed me to embrace.

Nadyne McKie: 26:56

The idea which, for me, has always been there about, about yoga and practicing yoga and movement in general, is that it allows us to tap into that place, that part of us that is quite playful and how embracing that element of play and creativity and kind of allowing ourselves to, to be in that space with our child as they recover, can be really, really helpful as well, not only for the child but for us, you know, it can be a very connecting time.

Nadyne McKie: 27:28

So, whilst, of course, nobody wants their child to be unwell ever, there can be some lovely moments within healing, there can be some things that we can look back on and think actually that's something I've gained for my life. You know that has is going on to help me. It's been a period of transformation, in fact, and actually, when we are allowing ourselves and, you know, embracing that side of us and I really encourage that in this book that we connect with our children in this way, in this playful way, um, it can be really, really lovely, lovely thing to do together that not only helps your child in their recovery but might become part of your life together going forward, that there are these moments of of kind of of rest together, or it might be that one of the breathing practices becomes something that becomes a really regular daily thing for you both, um, or for the whole family, because ultimately, this is about looking at how we can increase well-being daily that supports our recovery.

Jackie Baxter: 29:21

I mean, I love this idea of play because, you know, I guess it kind of like, like you said, I don't feel like an adult. Um, you know, I'm, I'm so silly and I like, I like that bit of myself and you know, I sort of do see myself as a big child in some ways, you know a big child who's also able to act like an adult at appropriate times. But you know, I kind of like that. And I suppose this comes back to how difficult it is. Some people have some support, maybe they have a partner or they have family nearby or they have supportive friends.

Jackie Baxter: 29:59

But I'm just thinking, even in my own experience and I don't have kids I don't have anyone to look after other than myself, and I found it so difficult to ask for help. I'm not the sort of person that naturally asks for help, and even when my partner was offering to help, it took me running myself into the ground before I sort of accepted it out of necessity. And when you are a parent and you are, you know, having to kind of dedicate so much time to looking after your unwell child, I guess having support from elsewhere is something that you have to have, isn't it? But it's probably very difficult sometimes, or certainly, for some people to ask for that or to accept it or in some cases, maybe even to find someone to ask.

Nadyne McKie: 30:48

And you know, it's really good to acknowledge that, because for some people they don't live near their family and maybe family for them isn't necessarily going to be the source of support and perhaps they can't rely on friends. And often support comes at a price right. If we need to gain support outside of family and friends, it can be expensive, and so, again, what I think I tried to hopefully get across, Fiona and I, in the book is how we can empower ourselves to find that support for ourselves and I'm very aware that life is busy and it's never busier than when you're looking after somebody else as well and that ability to even take and I'm very encouraging of this. It doesn't need to be that we have hours spent doing these practices because in fact, our bodies and brains don't really recognize the to-do list of well-being activities as anything different than, you know, a huge, long list of life admin. It's going to take time, energy and resources from us and we need it to feel restorative.

Nadyne McKie: 31:59

And actually what can be very helpful for people caring for others is to carve tiny, like even a minute, like a micro break, just to give themselves a moment to pause.

Nadyne McKie: 32:11

And there's lots of small practices like that through the book, which I think can be really useful, certainly can be useful for children, as they maybe have a gradual return to school so that their body is still receiving the practices of coming back to themselves, of taking a pause. And, most importantly and this you know, throughout the book we talk about this, and I know this is a subject that's very much on your radar with your breathing courses is that learning how to breathe in a way that really supports our body and our well-being is absolutely essential. And within the chapter that I've written for specifically for children and people caring for children, again, it's about perhaps we can encourage an element of play almost into this as well, and and and that becomes hopefully, something that carries on and stays with them as they, as they go back into their, their routine and in perhaps a slower, more gradual way. Um, so, yeah, it's not an easy process, getting support and asking for help absolutely, but it's something that we need to accept is really an important part of recovery I still use a lot of breathing exercises.

Jackie Baxter: 33:34

I mean, you know we're talking about breathing here, but there's lots of other strategies as well, you know, and I use breathing every day. You know, when I'm sitting at my computer and I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, I've got this to-do list, and I'm really stressed and I'm getting overwhelmed and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then it's like, okay, come on, let's just close our eyes and just breathe just for like 20 seconds. And then, okay, now I can handle the to-do list, now I can kind of look at this with a slightly clearer head, kind of thing. And you know, that's something that me as an adult has learned and ingrained into my day, really. And I suppose this maybe comes back to what you were saying about play, because for a child, you know, you can, you know when you're at home, for example, you know, right, we're going to breathe for a minute, right, we're going to do this, we're going to do that.

Jackie Baxter: 34:26

But then when you put that child, for example, back into their school situation, it's a very different environment. They've got pressures from all over and you know, when you're a kid it matters what people think about you as well. So if you're like playing football in the, in the playground, or, you know, reading your. You're reading books with your friends, or whatever, and you're you sort of go, I gotta go breathe for a minute. Like you know, people are gonna look at you, aren't, aren't they in that situation? So it's like finding ways for kids to do this, whilst feeling okay in themselves, I suppose, and putting it into their lives in a way that works for them, which is going to be very different to how it works for me in my life, I suppose, as as an adult.

Nadyne McKie: 35:12

And I think you know, wouldn't it be lovely if all schools had this kind of thing with them? And I know there are lots of people out there pushing this initiative, you know and A lot of the skills of emotional regulation that I use in my therapy work with adults, I think to myself God, these would be brilliant in schools. You know, this is the type of stuff I wish I'd learned. I don't know about you, jackie, but I haven't used algebra or Pythagoras' theorem for a real long time, but I know that there are people out there that definitely have and I know them, but wouldn't it be great if if that was something that became socially acceptable?

Nadyne McKie: 35:58

you know that was actually taught in schools and I know there were schools out there doing this and, thank goodness, brilliant, let's have all schools doing this teaching children how they can empower themselves to help their bodies be calm in situations that are stressful, or, if they're feeling anxious, they can take a time out to pause and do a little breathing exercise, or whatever it might be or move their bodies.

Nadyne McKie: 36:26

Let's allow them to move their bodies and not sit for eight hours. You know, and you mentioned about being on screen, and this is something that that really came up for me personally comes up with just about every child that I've worked with is how do we really encourage our children to rest? That often involves, when I'm working with children, a little bit of education about what's our body doing when we're on screen, like, do we even notice what our body's doing if we're online? Do we? Do we notice what happens to our breathing when we're reading through, like social media, if we're watching shorts on youtube, what are we noticing? Are we noticing? And having this kind of conversation with kids is super interesting because when they do start to notice, it's really transformational, because it's at that time that that they're like, oh, I don't think I'm breathing and it's like, oh, my goodness, wow, okay, so we've got this new awareness. And then we can kind of add in how about if you're online, if you're looking online or watching something online, how about you take a minute out just to breathe and come away from the screen and move your eyes in different ways, because our eyes get very fixed and this is again coming back to the work and the practices that we encourage for recovery. That can be really helpful. But it's just in kind of making that accessible to children, this information, this knowledge that's within them but they may not be aware of it, and that's been actually quite a lovely thing for many children.

Nadyne McKie: 38:07

However, coming back to the rest and how children like to rest, so often it involves screens and you know the non-awareness Is that a word? Non-awareness? Who knows Not being aware of the impact of screen time on our bodies and specifically on our breathing rhythms, and what that can mean if we're on screen for long periods of time. And I mean, obviously this goes for everybody, because, hey, we're all on screen and if you work on a screen, you're probably on screen for most of your day. And how important is it that we recognize what the effect effects of that are to specifically for our breathing? Because our brains use up so much energy, oxygen they need so much whilst we're learning, and learning and moving are the two biggest kind of energy depleters for our brain. So how are we going to get that? We're going to probably get that through breathing more functionally, more effectively, by taking time out off screen, by taking those kind of micro breaks away, maybe even setting a timer for that to happen.

Nadyne McKie: 39:42

And it doesn't need to be that we're telling everybody we're doing this.

Nadyne McKie: 39:49

I often encourage people to use certain techniques that are really you wouldn't even know they're super subtle, nobody would know you're doing them, so it doesn't need to be announced. It's just a really lovely practice of kind of coming back to yourself, which can be really empowering, because after, after a while, as long as we allow ourselves the idea that, hey, this is a practice, we don't need to be perfect at this straight away, and that's another conversation to have perhaps, yeah, it can be super, super helpful in our daily lives. But specifically so, as you say, kids don't want to go to school and go. Look, I'm being really different here in that I need this, this and this in my day and often in the you know most school environments, that's just not possible to take loads of time out to be doing these things. But there are things that we can do to help support our children and help them support themselves when they do go back into those types of environment which, hopefully many of them they will now.

Jackie Baxter: 40:59

You said that your son is doing much, much better now. Um, yeah, and I think we should definitely highlight this as as some hope um, because there are so many kids that are really, really struggling, which is obviously then adding more and more pressure onto the people who are caring for them. Are you able to talk, just maybe very briefly, about a few of the things that have helped your son?

Nadyne McKie: 41:22

yeah, of course, and lots of these things are are in the book. As I said, we were very lucky. We had an amazing consultant pediatrician who advised us, and my son did have to take time off school. This is a few years ago now, so this is not current um, but he did have to have a long period of time off school and I'm well aware that for many, many children, this becomes their life. You know that maybe homeschooling starts or maybe they find alternative methods of of education, and that in itself brings with it its own challenges. And one of the things that I think was really important was acknowledging how we perhaps are not aware of where our energy goes, and there's different types of energy. People tend to think that energy is about what we do with our bodies.

Nadyne McKie: 42:13

You know the movement of our bodies, and often certain activities will wear us out more than others, but actually even what we might consider to be restful might actually be expending an awful lot of energy. I know that you and I have spoken about this, but when, as an adult, in recovery, just reading a book was super like tiring, exhausting, watching something, trying to concentrate on something and follow a storyline of something was not possible for me at certain periods when I was unwell and those types of cognitive energy depletion. You know we don't necessarily think about that for children. Learning is a huge energy expense for a child. And what are they doing all the time? They're learning, socializing. You know we don't want our children to be isolated, of course not, but we also have to acknowledge that having a social experience with somebody going out, meeting a mate or having friends over or family over can be exhausting for a child recovering from fatigue. So it's really important that we acknowledge that it's not just the activities the child is doing, but it's actually those activities and those experiences that we might not be acknowledging that could be impacting their recovery and we need to really be aware of that and to have management techniques and coping in place for how we manage that part of their lives. And of course, this is not something that our society particularly embraces and encourages. And so that again I come back to the need for advocacy, the need for understanding and support while we go through what can be a very isolating experience in not only having the fatigue, the long, long covid, but also caring for somebody with it, doing things a little bit differently, not forcing their child back to school.

Nadyne McKie: 44:20

I mean, yeah, I've definitely had some don't want to say arguments, but some heated discussions about why I was allowing my child time off, why I was saying no, I don't think sports day is right for him.

Nadyne McKie: 44:36

You know, at this point in time his body cannot cope with that amount of energy that's needed.

Nadyne McKie: 44:44

And you know, it does sometimes make me laugh that the misunderstanding and um, yeah, he was, um, there was a, an experience a while ago where he was put into the long distance, like running race, and I was just like, why would you put a child who's had chronic fatigue in for a long distance run, like even when he's well and he is well now but the awareness of management of his energy? Because you know, we're we're a couple of years down the line and yet, as I was saying about myself, I'm aware that there are certain periods of time I go through, particularly when I'm feeling stressed, or I'm under a lot of pressure, perhaps, or I catch, catch myself again in one of these patterns, but, hello, spinning way too many plates, I feel those little whispers of fatigue coming back, and he has the ability to feel these too, and he is able to manage them. And yet it requires constant kind of monitoring, as it were, and and talking about it and checking in and checking in with ourselves and and knowing what our body is experiencing.

Nadyne McKie: 46:01

What's it saying to us? You know, are we listening or have we just ignored it again and finding ourselves maybe in that relapse again, which, yeah, when we've recovered, I think it's as I I was saying, it's something that we still need to be aware of and, of course, for many people that's, that's a dream experience, you know, to be able to be back doing those types of activity, those sporting activities that our school system really places an awful lot of emphasis on. So, again, getting support for yourself really super vital because you are going to no doubt have to advocate for your child's needs in a system that really wants them to be able well and attending. So, yeah, these are the things that I encourage and have become a part of my life due to personal experience, but also because I work with so many people going through this experience.

Jackie Baxter: 46:57

There was something you just said about for now, at this moment in time, this is not something that my son can do, and that doesn't mean that next year or the year after that he won't be able to run the long distance race. But this year, for now, that is not appropriate for him. And I distance race, but this year, for now, that is not appropriate for him, and I am putting down my foot quite strongly. That is not going to happen, because you have to as an advocate, as a parent, I suppose and again, you know, maybe the media is to blame for this, maybe who knows what's to blame for it.

Jackie Baxter: 47:28

You know, a lot of people see something like long covid, as you know, a forever thing, and I think highlighting that people are recovering is really important.

Jackie Baxter: 47:39

But, as you also rightly say, you don't go through an experience, a big life experience like long COVID, without coming out different. You are more aware of your body, which is a good thing, and you're able to understand, as you say, where your energy goes and treat ourselves with more respect. So actually, you know, if I've had a really heavy week, maybe I'm not going to kick the arse out of myself at the weekend, maybe I'll take a little more time for myself and in some ways I wish that's a lesson I had learned, you know, many, many years ago. I think the sort of in this moment thing is so important because, you know, it gives us that hope for the future and it sort of manages those expectations for those around you as well, when you're talking to schools, for example. You know, as a big example when you're a child, obviously, and maybe this year is going to be a struggle, but there's next year- it's really important that we look at what words we're using.

Nadyne McKie: 48:42

You know, I often use the phrase just for now with people, because it means that we're not dismissing our current, present experience, but we're recognizing that right now, this is what's happening for me and we're not saying to ourselves this is, this is me forever. You know, I will never get better. I will always be recovering from this and whilst I'm acknowledging that for me, I have to manage myself, my energy levels still to this day, that's actually in many ways, been a really positive thing, and I do struggle with it occasionally and I do take on too much and I hold my hands up at that and I feel the after effects of it. But actually going through that period of time where I was very unwell allowed me to learn an awful lot more about myself. But it's always about that balance. Let's acknowledge where we're at and our limitations and our capabilities. Let's empower ourselves with information, let's allow ourselves to get support and rest like properly rest so that we can give ourselves the best opportunity for recovery, because recovery is possible for many.

Nadyne McKie: 49:53

I'm not going to say all, because I can't. However, if we can think about it as a just for now thing, as you so rightly say. It allows us to give our ourselves hope, to continue to keep a sense of positivity and I don't mean positive vibes, only type bullshit. What I mean is that we need to sometimes create that ability for our brain. Oh no, how we talk about ourselves to ourselves is really important. We know this, right, because probably all of us have that little inner critic voice that talks to us.

Nadyne McKie: 50:35

Generally speaking, it's not always the most positive voice. You might be telling us that, oh, you've done that again, have you? That was silly or whatever it is, you know. But if we can recognize that and remind ourselves, this is today. Today I'm feeling like this let's see, you know, let's keep ourselves in the just for now. This is what I'm going through. This is what my child's experience is. This is how they're feeling today. It can be very impactful for us in our recovery process and in fact, it's a really important part of it because it's about acceptance of what is and having compassion for that and allowing ourselves to act on that and respond to that, but without kind of holding on to. This could be all you know always, because nothing is always. Every day is different that's true.

Jackie Baxter: 51:35

Yeah, nothing stays the same forever, does it?

Nadyne McKie: 51:38

um, even the things that we desperately want them to and you know that's it's a very I'm not saying it's an easy thing and we acknowledge that massively in the book. You know this is not an easy thing to go through not at at all and riding the ups and downs of it, the crazy roller coaster of it, is in itself something that can be really hard, you know, and does create a lot of anxiety and depression and feelings of am I doing the right thing? You know, where is this magic pill that I need? Where you know who am I going to speak to next? What am I doing? I need to do this, this and this. You know it can bring up an awful lot of stuff for us and, ultimately, if we can keep coming back to ways of empowering and gaining support and specifically, if we're looking after our children or children of ours with fatigue and long COVID, that is a really essential element.

Jackie Baxter: 52:37

Yeah, absolutely Well, you summed that up really beautifully acceptance for now, hope for the future absolutely well, thank you so much for coming back and talking to me again, um, and sharing all of this wisdom, um, the book is now out. Uh, the link will be in the show notes and, and it's wonderful, it's full of so much good stuff. So, yeah, thank you so much, Nadyne, it's been a pleasure.

Nadyne McKie: 53:00

Thanks so much.