160 - Dr. Raymond Perrin Breakthroughs in the Lymphatic System

This enlightening episode features Dr. Raymond Perrin as he discusses the intricate connections between the sympathetic nervous system and chronic conditions like Long Covid and ME-CFS. With his unique Perrin Technique, he highlights the importance of understanding the body's drainage systems to promote healing and recovery.

• Introduction of Dr. Raymond Perrin and his background
• Explanation of the Perrin technique and its relevance
• Insights into the autonomic nervous system's role
• The discovery of the lymphatic system and its implications
• The connection between Long Covid and ME/CFS and toxic buildup in the brain
• Overview of treatment methodologies and their effectiveness
• Discussion on the evolving recognition of chronic illness

Share your thoughts and experiences with us—let's continue the conversation! And tune in next week to hear more!

For  more information about The Perrin Technique visit  www.theperrintechnique.com

Self massage techniques available here

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Chapters

• 0:00 Perrin Technique and ME-CFS Treatment
• 10:29 Brain Drainage and Neurological Disorders
• 23:22 Brain Drainage and Lymphatic System Discovery

Transcript

Jackie Baxter: 0:55

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Long Covid Podcast. I'm delighted to be joined this afternoon by Dr Raymond Perrin, who is an osteopath and neuroscientist and also has developed the Perrin technique, so we're going to take a bit of a dive into what is this and how is it relevant to people with Long Covid and ME-CFS. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. It's lovely to have you here.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 1:23

I'm happy to be here, Jackie. Yes.

Jackie Baxter: 1:25

So yeah, before we start talking about all of this, can you just say a little bit about yourself and sort of largely what it is that you do?

Dr Raymond Perrin: 1:34

Right, okay, so I'm an osteopath by training at the British School of Osteopathy. I learnt my trade between 1980 and 1984 in London at the British School, which was the first school of osteopathy outside America. So osteopathy itself is actually 150 years old the profession, and so I'm not that old. And I trained and qualified 40 years ago and then went on to do work with sports injuries in Manchester, where I was brought up. I'm originally from London, but I was brought up in Manchester and I went back to Manchester to set up my clinic and specialise, as Manchester as most people know, manchester famous of two things vein and sports. So I wanted to make sports my my main modus op in sports medicine. So I started treating a lot of footballers. I was treating different people from different sporting events and one of the things that Manchester Excel that we still do is cycling. And we had, you know, the Valley Banana team. The Valley Banana team was the precursor for the Sky team, british Sky team, and I was treating quite a few members of the Valley Banana team when one of them came in in 1989 with ME what we call now ME-CFS, me myalgic encephalomyelitis.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 3:10

In those days in the 80s it was called yuppie flu, the dreaded yuppie flu. It sent just these young professionals who are working flat out in the office. They just need to get out, do some exercise and then they'll be fine. But it wasn't that sort of illness and most of these patients got worse and worse and worse. Anyway, this guy was a cyclist before he got ME, but he also had back problems and that's why he came to me.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 3:35

I was an osteopath working in Manchester so I treated him, for as I treated his colleagues, I treated him for back problems a lot of spinal problems with cyclists and I said I can't really help you ME, because in those days we thought it was very much in the mind and just smile at the patient, tender, loving care, but we couldn't really do anything. But with the treatment I did on his spine and his head because I always used cranial techniques which are working on the head then his symptoms started to improve and within a few weeks his symptoms were definitely improving. In a few months he was symptom-free. So he came to me with a whole pile of notes and research data. He said read this, because nobody's able to work out what's wrong with me and why I've got ME and you have, and you've treated me and your treatment's got me better and I said, well, I don't know how, but I'll look into it. So it was really by chance that I actually helped this patient. But then I thought, what did I do? And I worked on his spine and the thoracic spine was the main area, that's the mid part of the spine, and that's when I started thinking, hey, wait a second. All these this notes about ME and patients with it all have symptoms of what now we call dysautonomia.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 4:57

So what we we called in the osteopathic world sympatheticonia that the sympathetic nervous system was being overloaded and was not, was working in a dysfunctional way. And the sympathetic nerves comes from the spine in the thoracic area, from the top of the thoracic to the bottom. It's mostly coming from the spine in that area to travel around the body. And the sympathetic nerve is there, a nervous system. It's known as the fear, fight and flight system. But it's much more than just for, for, uh, for danger and for when the body's under stress. It's there to keep everything moving automatically. Um, it's there to help the blood flow. It's there to help the blood flow. It's there to help the organs work the heart, the lungs, the kidneys, the bowels. The sympathetic nervous system is the mainstay for all the automatic functions of the body. We also have the parasympathetic nervous system, the vagus nerve, mainly coming from the head, and there's some from the sacrum at the bottom which also parallels the sympathetic and it, and it sort of helps balance the system out. It's known more for calming the system and then aggravating the system, but these this is all part of the autonomic nervous system and I thought, well, what I've done is by working on his spine and working his body and working his head, I've helped the sympathetic nervous system probably also the power sympathetics, the autonomics to balance down. So then we have to look at what's going on in the body while that's happening. So then I came up with my theories, and so that's the background to how it all started and from that one patient.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 6:37

And then I decided to do research and I got into the University of Salford when I spent the next 11 years conducting two clinical trials for a master's and upgraded to a PhD and I got my doctorate in 2005. And my doctorate after that. It was interesting because at the graduation in 2005, which is almost 20 years ago now, my wife cried because she realized how much hard work I've been through to get to this stage. But then she cries now because I carried on doing post-grad research and I carried on doing more and more. So I carried on and now at the University of Manchester I was at the University of Central Lancashire doing research. I'm now attached to the University of Manchester, our honorary clinical research fellow and carried on and on.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 7:34

You don't stop with research.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 7:36

There's always new things to learn.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 7:38

But my, what I tell people is that when I started my research work and when I finished my PhD in 2005, it was a PhD on the involvement of the lymphatic system of the brain, the sympathetic nervous system in ME, and ME in those days, still in the 90s, were still disbelieved by many doctors as an actual illness.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 8:03

Even now they're still fighting the battle to try and get it recognised in some places. And so I did a research, a PhD, at the University of Salford in a disease that officially didn't exist in many people's books, of sulfur, in a disease that officially didn't exist in many people's books. And then the process I said was going wrong, of that the drainage of the brain into lymphatics was, was was being affected because the nervous system was being affected was completely against medical thinking at the time, completely the opposite, and we'll explain that obviously today. But I was fighting the battle. But, as I always say, I got a PhD at Southfield University on a disease that didn't exist, on a process that didn't exist, and they still gave me a doctorate out of it. So you know, miracles do happen.

Jackie Baxter: 8:54

You know, I love how you set out to help this, this man with his back, and sort of ended up completely by accident, almost, you know, curing something else which is amazing. It's obviously amazing for him, but you know, for you to kind of realise that and then go, huh, there's something here. I think that's really cool. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's so difficult, certainly for so many people to get recognition of an illness that you know, even though long COVID is recognised sort of efficiently, you know, the definition of it keeps changing depending on who you ask In terms of, you know, doctors, many of them don't know what to do, many of whom will then dismiss it because they don't know what to do, many of whom will then dismiss it because they don't know what to do. People all over are getting treated really badly and I think this is common within the ME community over the many, many years.

Jackie Baxter: 10:31

But I think you know, on top of that, to be also able to say well, you know, this is a real illness, it does exist. You know you're not experiencing something that's made up, you're not lazy, but also there are lots of things that can help. Um, you know, maybe it's not the same thing in the same way for every person, but there are a lot of things out there that are helping. Maybe for your cyclist it might have been kind of one thing, for other people maybe it's a couple of different things, like understanding what's going on. Okay, now, what can we do? And I love that you just kind of like did that and you know I get the impression that you were a bit ahead of the trend there.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 11:12

Yeah, but I drew on some of the research that had been done before, which hadn't proven anything, but I'd come up with similar theories that there must be a drainage system of the brain. In fact, osteopathy was founded by andrew taylor, still in america, 150 years ago, and he talked about the, the drainage of the brain. He talked about the waters of the brain draining into lymphatics. So he knew something, instinctively. He knew something that that must be there and quite, and there's been a few. It goes right back to the scottish. So, uh, in scotland there was william cruikshank in scotland in the 1800s who came up with a very similar idea of drainage of the brain being a very important part of the lymphatic system.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 11:57

But most of the world of medicine and science said no, there's no such thing. And why did they say there's no such drainage system? Even when I was doing my PhD and even after I published, and even publishing, many papers? It was only too recently, and I'll explain that now. Only only too recently, and I'll explain that now. So what did I know that other people didn't? And why was I so adamant that this was the way forward? Well, as they say, it's one, it's part of the jigsaw puzzle of health. It's not the only thing, and every single patient with ME and every single patient with long COVID is different. There's not one the same and this baffles medicine. And it also it goes against the way medicine is working, where they want the one pill to cure the illness and if you can't find the pill, it's not an illness worth treating or worth investing in because there's not big money to be made at the end of it. Uh, that's a whole different subject what was it?

Jackie Baxter: 13:08

one pill to cure them all, but this is it that's what.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 13:12

That's what the ultimate thing is, and all the me associations for years have been looking for this one pill. All the doctors involved in me have been looking for this one pill, the one virus that causes the illness. And now we have the one virus that officially causes long covered is covered coronavirus. We know what it is, but it's not the cause. And that's the key, the key to the whole of the parent technique and what I've discovered. These viruses are not the cause and people say what do you mean?

Dr Raymond Perrin: 13:43

I know, I had covered and then I got ill. Yes, it was the trigger, but the cause happened long time before. Basically, what I discovered, or what I theorized at the time, was that there was a drainage system of the brain and this drainage system was not just blood. We were taught in when I was in college that fluid in the brain cerebrospinal fluid, and that drains away from the brain into the blood. So it's produced in the blood and then it goes into the brain in an area called the choral plexus and the fluid goes round the brain down the spine and then up the spine again and out of the blood into what's known as the venus venous plexus, the venous sinuses. So you've got the choral plexus producing the, the cereospinal fluid, and it goes around the brain and then out in the venous sinuses in what's known as the arachnoid villi. Now these are technical terms, but basically it's produced by the blood, goes back to the blood. So in the brain itself, cerebrospinal fluid moves following the heart rate and when we do scans on the cerebrospinal fluid we put a heart rate monitor and it follows systole, diastole of the blood of the heart. It starts to lub-dub the 5200 beats a minute. So in the brain cerebrospinal fluid moves at 50 to 100 beats a minute. What I've discovered is that this fluid doesn't just drain off into the blood, and what's been now discovered around the blood, my theory was was it actually drains into the lymphatics? So there is a lymphatic drainage system which is now called the glymphatic system. But when I wrote my thesis this hadn't been discovered. So why did I know that this system existed and why was there so much opposition against the idea that it did exist? And then we have to go and study the lymphatics in detail, which I have and I lecture around the world now.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 16:10

The lymphatics is a drainage system of the body and the reason why scientists and doctors always said for years and years and years the drainage system of the brain doesn't exist and these people who say it does is nonsense. Because there's a barrier the blood brain barrier surrounding the brain and the spinal cord. The spinal cords a continuation of the brain. The central nervous system continues on down the spinal cord. So this has a barrier stopping any large molecules getting into the brain. This blood-brain barrier only allows small molecules in and the small molecules can be drained away in the capillaries of the blood. They can take small molecules away through, get in and therefore larger molecules need a separate system and that's the lymphatics, their walls. I've got that gills of a fish opening and closing allowing large molecules to get in. So these large molecules get into lymphatics and drain away, eventually into the blood at the collarbone. Uh, underneath the collarbone is this, where there's a vein that comes from the head, the internal jugular, and there's a vein that comes from underneath the collarbone, called the subclavian, and where they join together these venous angles, there's a drainage system of the lymph into the blood, where there's much larger vessels, and then eventually goes through the heart into the liver and the liver detoxifies. This is is how the lymphatics work. But the brain doesn't need a lymphatic because it has this barrier. So large molecules can't get into the brain.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 18:00

Okay, so I come along and say not only can it get into the brain, there's a problem when it can't get out, and this causes major neurological diseases, including ME, and also there's a lot of research being done on Alzheimer's. So it is probably one of the causes of Alzheimer's, if not the major cause. So the ME and fibromyalgia. Another one is the is the same. There's what I call neurolymphatic disorders. So I said that it's not draining away. So how do you know that there was a drainage system? I thought there has to be because every second of every day, huge molecules get into the brain. So the idea of the blood blood brain barrier stopping any large molecules is nonsense.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 18:51

Huge molecules and I'm talking about hormones hormones are massive molecules. Now let's take the classic hormone that we all should share, and that's insulin. Insulin is in both in male and female. It's produced by the pancreas and, and if you don't have enough of it, you end up with, obviously, with diabetes. So it controls the sugar levels. It does more than that, but the insulin is produced in the pancreas, in the abdomen. It travels into the blood that's what hormones do and then it goes up into the brain, because in the brain, all hormones are controlled by a small organ in the mid part of the brain which is the size of an almond, known as the hypothalamus, and that measures the hormonal levels and then sends messages via autonomic nervous system back to the organs that this case the, the pancreas to produce more or less internet. And this mechanism is known as biofeedback, and we were taught this right from word go, as when I was studying physiology in the British School of Osteopathy we're taught about hormones and I thought why wait?

Dr Raymond Perrin: 20:30

Hormones are huge molecules, small molecules, the size of a water molecule, which is only 18 daltons daltons the measurement of a molecule named after john dalton from manchester, by the way, might as well wave the manchester flag. A water molecule can get through the blood brain barrier. That's 18 daltons large. It's only very small, but a molecule, a polypeptide, full of different protein molecules like insulin, which is 5,808 Daltons. So it's a massive molecule that gets into the brain because we know the hypothalamus has insulin receptors and they measure it. So how do they get in? And now we know there are seven areas in the brain called circumventricular areas and these areas have a weakness in the blood-brain barrier. So they allow large molecules in. And if they allow large molecules of hormones in and also salts and electrolytes, lots of things get into the brain.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 21:31

So do toxins, big toxins that need the lymphatics to drain away and therefore there had to be a drainage system. And it was originally researched by a russian guy called speransky who looked at animal models and he's he injected into the brain and he heized that what he injected ended up in the lymph in the neck. But he hypothesized it went through different channels and the main channel it went through, he hypothesized, was the cribriform plate. This is a plate part of the ethmoid bone and the ethmoid bone is above the nasal passages and in it are olfactory nerves that come from the brain through little perforations and the olfactory nerves come out and they're into the nasal cavity and next to the olfactory nerve in these perforations are blood vessels supplying the nerve and around those blood vessels are spaces, perivascular spaces and paravascular spaces different types of spaces, but the spaces that allow fluid out of the brain. And it's that drainage system that Speransky said is happening, taking the toxins away from the brain into the lymphatics in the nose and then down into, eventually into the collarbone area and into the blood. So they didn't have proof of this because there was no scanning techniques that could show these very small areas right next to the blood. So we just theorized that that's where it was going and this theory was repeated by different people. There's's Professor Weller in Southampton who did a lot of work. There was different people doing different research work, but nobody could prove it.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 23:23

And I was working on the hypothesis that this was correct, but I had no proof. All I could do was show a picture of a diagram I made of a perforation with an olfactory nerve and the blood vessel next to it. So this is the drainage system that I felt was happening. But it also happens in the eyes, in the cheeks, in the trigeminal in the mouth, the trigeminal nerves in the ears. Those are the main drainage the cochlear vestibular nerves, the nerves that control hearing and balance. They have these blood vessels. But every cranial nerve has blood vessels and they have these spaces that drain away the toxins. But also in the spine, spinal nerves all have blood vessels with these spaces. So I said it's those spaces that are not draining off out of the brain, they're draining back in Because the sympathetic nervous system was shown many years ago to control the lymphatic system and we weren't taught that when I was in college.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 24:29

I wasn't taught that. I was taught they were just tubes that squeeze along by blood and squeeze along by muscles outside, but not actually controlled by any nerves. But we know even the smallest lymph vessels are controlled by. So there's small lymph vessels known as lymphangions, and underneath the surface of the skin they're minute. They're about one half of a millimeter in diameter in health and they all have nerves attached to them because they have smooth muscle walls that contract and they push the lymph along under control of the sympathetic nerves, which is under control of the hypothalamus. Hypothalamus also has a major effect on balancing the autonomic nervous system.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 25:18

So when it gets poisoned, if there's a backflow or there's damage to the drainage and there's a buildup from damage in the head or damage in the spine and you can damage in the head from birth, people can have damage in the head if they had a long labor. So we're seeing a lot more firstborn babies having ME and long COVID. But we see a lot of firstborn babies who all have had difficult births or sometimes a very quick birth. If they're not firstborn they might be third or fourth baby and they can come out very quickly. A quick birth and a slow birth can cause problems from day one without any trauma, but then we see trauma happening. Lots of people have damage to their head from different bumps and when they're younger and we see maybe when they're older they've had whiplash, injuries or anything and they've had spinal problems and they've had inflammation there. And now we have a picture of a buildup of problems affecting the drainage system that we now know exists, and we only know it has existed in animals.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 26:28

In 2012. There was a study done in Rochester University that showed this drainage did exist just the university that showed this drainage did exist. So it was the first vindication of my hypothesis that there was a drainage problem where all doctors were walking out of my lecture saying there's no such thing. In 2012, they actually did a scan. They produced new scanning techniques dual photon emission tomography that could see the spaces and see the drainage in mice. And then they saw further on in 2015 that there was actually limp vessels lining the brain, the meninges. There was actually in the jaw, outside of the brain. There was actually limp vessels that people never knew existed, was there to be seen, but in animals, and had to wait to 2017 before they showed this drainage system and the lymph vessels existed in humans. But even then there was a flat earthers who said, no, there's no drainage system, it's only in animals and the human one. It's just interpretation. We don't believe it's actually draining.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 27:32

We need real time and believe it or not, just one month ago today, the 7th of October, a paper came out from Oregon. So it's taken this long and my thesis was published in 2005,. So almost 20 years ago now, and my original hypothesis was in 1989. 35 years ago and just four weeks ago in Oregon they took five patients with brain surgery who had brain tumours and they gave permission the five patients to have an injection put in of a dye into the fluid. So when they did the surgery on the people's brains, they took the fluid away and then they pumped this dye in Ganodinium into the vein and watched in real time how it drains from one part. They did scanning and scanning and saw it go from one area to the next, to the next, following what is known now as the lymphatic pathway. The glymphatics is the lymphatic system of the glial cells and it's just happened one month ago.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 28:46

Too late to go in my book on long covid, but enough to be able to lecture and tell the world about that. We have actual hard evidence. And I was talking to a one of skeptical professors. I know he said we've got, now got the visible proof that this drainage system exists. You can see it. And he said no, you can't say proof. You can never say proof in science. You know it's, there's evidence, this is proof, this is a concept. It's proof of concept the whole thing because it shows it actually happening. And it's a bit like, you know, when Orville and Wilbur Wright were told that man cannot fly and they got into a plane and they flew. So yeah, they proved you can fly in a plane. So you know, this is the thing you know in science, you can have strong evidence that it works out to be a proof and they've proven that that there is a drainage system of the pain. So now the scientists are going to work out what happens when it goes wrong.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 29:46

And I started thinking this way 35 years ago and I said what happens when it goes wrong? You end up with toxins building up and if the sympathetic nervous system pumps the wrong way and right way and wrong way, dysfunctional more and more toxins will build up in the brain, in the hypothalamus, which is the controlling mechanism to help this whole drainage system, and I said the main control will be the sympathetic nervous system and in the brain it stimulates chemicals called noradrenaline in the for the American market nor epinephrine in an area of the brain, in the brainstem called the locus coelurus. I wrote that in my thesis and it was in 2013. It was shown that they looked at when the drainage was occurring in the mice and they found it happened during delta wave sleep, during deep, restorative sleep, and the reason why it was restorative why you woke up being refreshed in health was because the drainage of toxins occurred during that time and they found out which part of the brain was involved in that. The hypothalamus and the locus coeruleis switched off, allowing the drainage to occur. And now we have the full picture and the full picture is in my book showing what's actually happening.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 31:05

And we now know from research done this year in south korea that the main drainage of the brain is into the lymphatics of the neck via the cribriform plate, via this plate I was talking about in my thesis 30 odd years ago, and we know that a lot more of the drainage goes into the lymph in the spine, so hardly anything goes into the blood. So this gives us a reason why cranial osteopathy when we do the cranial techniques as well as the manual techniques to drain the lymph away, we use cranial techniques. And why there's a cranial problem is because the cranial rhythm that we feel is around 8 to 12 beats a minute. And I said at the beginning, the cerebrospinal fluid in the brain drains off from the blood. It goes around the brain and goes back to the blood. But now we know most of it goes to the lymph. And the lymph has a pumping mechanism all around the body. But the main pump, the thoracic duct pump, that's the main duct of the lymph, pumps at four beats a minute. So it starts at 50 to 100 beats a minute and it goes into the lymph. That has a beat of four beats a minute and now we know it does.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 32:23

There's evidence to show this. And then we see a connection between the two rhythms and when two waves come together, you don't need to be a physicist. If you're a physicist you'll say that's an interference wave. If you're not a physicist you'll say I've seen that in the beach. You have a big wave coming in, small going out, crash together they produce a third wave and in the third wave in the brain and in the body, is the cranial rhythm that we feel and it's totally dysfunctional because it's not draining properly. There's a lot of disturbance, a lot of turbulence. So that is one of the physical signs that we feel. And there's a backflow of lymph and we can feel that when we feel the tissues, these lymph vessels, because they're backflowing, they get bigger and bigger, become mega lymphatics. And I took the first photos of mega lymphatics in the patient with ME years ago. That was published in my thesis. But we actually have got further with a picture in my new book of a patient with long COVID with massive amounts of varicose lymphatics in the chest and the varicose lymph are just like varicose veins, except they're colourless because lymph doesn't contain blood. It contains the fluid lymph at the surface which is colourless. So we see these colourless vessels bumps all along the tissue, but you don't usually see it, but you feel it and this is one of the physical signs I discovered with Emi and with long COVID.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 33:52

Spinal problems we see spinal problems in every single person. There's actually flatness of the spine, usually in the mid thoracics, and it's usually affects people who are very active before they grow and their spines grow slightly wrongly and that could be the main problem building up affecting the drainage system. So it's a buildup affecting the main drainage system of the brain and the spinal cord, mechanical drainage problems, which then build up to toxic overload and then, once that overload happens, the hypothalamus starts going completely dysfunctional, pumping the lymph more in the wrong direction, creating more toxins and more toxic, and the final trauma usually a virus and in this case, with non-covid, it's the coronavirus that hits the body. And what's the first symptom that people had with coronavirus? Mostly loss of smell. It went up through the olfactory pathway, causing anosmia, loss of smell, or affected the smell. Then through the olfactory pathway, causing anosmia, loss of smell or affected the smell. Then through the cribriform plate the wrong way.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 35:04

As I said, what happens in ME? Wrong way into the brain, into the hypothalamus, and in the hypothalamus there's a little nucleus that controls fever. So you had fever and that fever and anosmia were the most common symptoms of people with COVID and that we knew from SARS-1, that patients who had SARS-1 in 2003 in Canada because long COVID was known as SARS-2, but SARS-1, a lot of them developed ME, the ones who survived the illness developed ME symptoms and it was found that the spike protein and the toxins had built up in the brain. And remember, it's post-viral condition, it's post-COVID. We call this syndrome post-COVID in my paper because I predicted that once we knew that COVID was going to happen, I predicted that long COVID was going to happen. We called it post-COVID-19. I wrote the paper on it on the day that the pandemic was announced 11th of March 2020, which was my wedding anniversary and my wife puts up with me a lot and she puts up with me staying up all night writing this paper and we called it into the looking glass because I knew that COVID-2 was going to do exactly the same and go into the brain and cause inflammatory toxins to build up in the brain.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 36:40

So it wasn't just the virus or the spike protein, it was the cytokines. In all the talks on television they were saying about viral load and cytokine storm. Cytokines are big, huge molecules of protein, interferons, interleukins that attach to the virus and are signaling molecules for the antibodies, saying, cooey, we're here and antibodies come along and then attack the virus, but afterwards those cytokines have to be drained away. And what drains those cytokines away? The lymphatics because they're large protein molecules and that drains away the cytokines and then the cytokines and then you're back to health. But if there's a massive load and there's loads of cytokines building up and there's already a backflow, because you've had problems in the past that you weren't really aware of those cytokines are going to go up into the brain and stay in the brain and not drain away.

Dr Raymond Perrin: 37:43

So it's those patients are the billions of people got covered. Millions of people have got long covered now, but you know many less I've got longer. It's the ones who've had a neural lymphatic problem in the first place. That and this is the final straw and it's caused this buildup. And then you have this buildup of cytokines and it's been proven that that causes the neuro-inflammation in the brain, causing the brain fog, causing the cognitive problems, causing depression and anxiety problems, causing all the symptoms we see in long COVID. That, basically, is the parent technique, the diagnosis of it is if we do the physical and the treatment, we actually drain it away. So that's the main thing. The treatment is the parent technique. So this is the. I've given you a science behind it. Did you, did you follow me so far? Did it make some?

Jackie Baxter: 38:37

yeah, I think I think so, and you know, and any listeners who are thinking, I feel a bit overwhelmed by all the science. What we're going to actually do right now is, uh, split this interview here. Allow us time to digest some of that because, to be honest, I feel like I need to do that as well and we will come back next week to hear Dr Perrin talk about what the practicalities of this is. How do we actually do it? We've got the science, we understand what's going on, what do we do about it? So thank you so much, dr Perrin. We will be back next week with more and I look forward to seeing you then.