180 - Jules Rogers - The Art of Saying No: Why Boundaries Matter in Healing

Jules Rogers returns to the podcast to discuss the essential role of boundaries in chronic illness recovery and everyday wellbeing, sharing how learning to protect our energy can be transformative.

• Boundaries are conscious protections we put in place to maintain our energy and ensure we're not giving beyond what feels right
• Different types include physical, emotional, material, mental, and time boundaries
• Setting boundaries becomes crucial when dealing with chronic illness as a way to preserve energy for healing
• The biggest barriers to maintaining boundaries are guilt, discomfort, and the belief that putting yourself first is selfish
• Jules created a powerful recovery mantra: "Is this going to help me heal?" as a guiding decision-making tool
• Even small boundaries can be beneficial - consistency matters more than size
• Boundaries naturally evolve throughout recovery and life as our needs and capacities change
• Starting with boundaries around the most energy-depleting activities provides the greatest benefit
• Learning to say no without over-explaining ("That doesn't work for me") can be more effective
• The skill of setting boundaries learned during illness becomes a valuable tool for living well after recovery

Jules' blog on boundaries: https://www.julesrogerslifecoach.com/post/10-boundaries-i-ve-put-in-place-so-i-can-live-a-balanced-healthy-and-joyful-life

Jules recovery story: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1835170/episodes/15344396

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back Jules: Introducing Boundaries
• 3:49 What Are Boundaries? Different Types Explained
• 9:23 Boundaries in Chronic Illness Recovery
• 17:17 Making the Decision to Prioritize Healing
• 27:22 Small Steps: Creating Achievable Boundaries
• 34:48 Evolving Boundaries Throughout Recovery
• 36:28 Overcoming Discomfort When Setting Boundaries

Transcript

Jackie Baxter: 0:55

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Non-COVID Podcast. I am super excited to welcome back Jules Rogers tonight. Jules shared her recovery story we've just discovered about a year ago, so everything has aligned to bring us together a year on, and today we're going to dive into the topic of boundaries, something that I certainly never knew the existence of before I got ill. So I'm super excited to find out where we end up here. So a really warm welcome back to the podcast, jules. It's so nice to see you.

Jules Rogers: 1:32

It's so lovely to be back, it's really great. So I've been running a kind of six-week course for people recover, like I've called it, start your Chronic Fatigue Recovery, and as I was kind of planning the sessions, it really dawned on me that boundaries are so important and I don't think I did much about boundaries, so I thought this is such an essential part of the recovery process. So I dedicate a whole week just to how we set boundaries and what boundaries even are was the first place to start, because they weren't really existing very well in my life before I got ill and yeah, and then working out how, how we set them, how we deal with that and kind of how we carry them on throughout our life absolutely, because that was going to be my first question as well, because I you know you make a beautiful point there.

Jackie Baxter: 2:32

You know, boundaries are something we learn out of necessity when we're not well, but they are an essential part of living well. And I have boundaries in my life now that I didn't really realise I needed before. So it's definitely part of the learning, I think, for me. So, yeah, let's start there. What is a boundary?

Jules Rogers: 2:54

I would say a boundary is is something you consciously put in place so that you are making sure your energy is maintained and that you're not giving too much beyond what is feels right for you in that moment, so that that kind of energy are able to replenish the energy that's given out by doing something and you give time for that energy to be replenished. And they're things that you need. So they can be like physical boundaries. They could be um emotional boundaries, financial boundaries, mental boundaries, time boundaries. There's so many different kinds of boundaries that we can put in place just so that we can protect our energy and our needs as well, to make sure we meet our own needs and we're not just giving too much sure we meet our own needs and we're not just giving too much.

Jackie Baxter: 4:04

Yeah, totally, and I think you know that last thing you said there, that you know meeting our needs, um, is so important, but there's a post-it that is still on my wall that says what are your needs? Because that's something I have to remind myself of daily, because I am that person that will give too much of myself because I want to help people or I want things to be right, or you know, whatever that reason is. So, yeah, I think that's. You know, that's such a nice way of putting it, and you mentioned all these different sorts of boundaries. There were some that you mentioned there that I hadn't thought of, actually. So what might be a good idea is to maybe give a few examples of some of these so something like a kind of a physical boundary is.

Jules Rogers: 4:49

I would explain it as like how, how comfortable do you feel with people being? Are you a hugger, are you not a hugger? And being respectful of that and being okay to kind of put a hand in if you're not a hugger and just or say I'd rather not. You know, it's like it's lovely to meet you, but to be okay to put that boundary in place and not feel bad about it. I think we can get to later talking about because that one of the hardest things I think about setting boundaries is dealing with that uncomfortableness of setting boundaries.

Jules Rogers: 5:28

Oh, yeah um and I think that is kind of a whole discussion in itself to actually be able to instill them, is the discomfort that comes along with them, um, so yeah, so that would be, I say, an example of a physical boundary. Uh, like an emotional boundary could be if others are feeling very emotional, they're wanting your time, they're wanting help to like with issues they have in their life. Like, do you have the emotional capacity to be able to help them at that moment? Have you got enough to give? And, if you haven't, to be able to say, honestly, I can see that this is a real issue for you, but at the moment, I'm sorry I don't have that capacity to be able to help you, because you need to have that knowledge and that compassion for yourself that you can't deplete yourself to help somebody else.

Jules Rogers: 6:23

Another one like something. It could be like a material boundary of like, for example, you could have somebody that wants to borrow money from you or your car or something like that, and you don't really want to lend it. Or they borrowed your car last time and they never put any petrol in it, and so there are boundaries around material things that you kind of need to know what your boundary is around that and kind of say those kind of things up front. Mental boundaries can be that kind of how much mental energy do you have for something? How much mental energy do you have for something?

Jules Rogers: 7:03

Like, if you're discussing something with somebody, it's kind of you might not have the same opinions on it, but just be OK to be like you know you have your opinion, I have my opinion, and that's OK. And to be able to stand on that and another big one I think I think too is probably time. So only kind of agree to doing things if it's not depleting you and your energy. So say, your friend wants help, I don't know, maybe moving house or something which is quite a big, and it's like that. I'd love to help you and I can but be really clear on how much time you have to do that and not again over give on your time.

Jackie Baxter: 7:52

So I think they're kind of some good examples of different kinds of boundaries yeah, absolutely, as you were saying that I, I was thinking, yeah, these are the things that I sometimes notice that I let slip, particularly the time one I'm terrible at the time one. So you know it's these. Yeah, you know, everyone will probably be sort of having their own sort of examples bouncing around, as you've given some of those examples. Oh, yeah, I do that. Yeah, I think that was really helpful.

Jackie Baxter: 8:27

And you know, obviously we said boundaries are important for everybody, um, and there's something I still, as I said, practice in my day-to-day life now and, yeah, we sort of learn them as as a sort of necessity or sort of, sometimes, self. You know, boundaries that almost kind of make themselves. You know, someone asks you to do something and you're like, well, I really want to and I'm going to try, but I actually literally can't lift my head off the pillow today, you know, and sometimes we will actually try to force ourselves to do things because we don't want to say that we can't. So when we then put this into the sort of long, covid, ME-CFS space, this whole boundary thing becomes possibly more important, doesn't it?

Jules Rogers: 9:08

in order to, I suppose, preserve energy for getting better yeah, I would say it's so important because it's like that feeling of I should do this because I've not actually done anything all day. Today I've had to ask people to help me with this or my person. You know, I have people doing this for me and that for me and I should do something, but actually it's a day where you can't do anything and it's about respecting that boundary of like today, this is just for now. This day, I can't do anything and to just stand by that and just be accepting of that, which is incredibly difficult to stand by and you just feel guilty and it's so hard to.

Jules Rogers: 10:03

I and I know for myself when I'm I find accepting help really difficult. So it was like every time I was having to face this thing that I found so difficult to ask for help, because that's weakness not not that it is, but that is the image and that would been in my head. The belief that I had was I'm showing weakness by having to keep asking for help. I can't stand on my own two feet, um, so I'm having to, the whole time, face this challenge of my kind of pattern of thought and that limiting belief I've had, while also being exhausted and just, yeah, dealing with so much stuff going on in the head, um, I think it, yeah, it's a lot to be able to try and process and deal with and execute as well yeah, absolutely, and I think you know the word should it's.

Jackie Baxter: 11:03

It's such an enemy, isn't it? You know when we find ourselves shoulding, you know I should be this, I should be that well says who? Um? But you know these things, they're ingrained in us from childhood probably. You know whether it's something we picked up from an adult or society or whatever. You know, and showing weakness, as you say, you know, I feel that very strongly as well and I notice it in myself, but I still still do it. You know, we're British. We don't show weakness, you know, and I'm sure it's a trait that a lot of other people will recognize in themselves too. And it's so hard, and I think often, even if we do manage to set those boundaries, we will still then beat ourselves up for it. So it's not enough to set the boundary in itself. It's that actually, we've got to find a way to somehow be OK with that.

Jules Rogers: 12:09

And hold that boundary of like, you know, because it takes courage to to set it and hold it and have that.

Jules Rogers: 12:13

Know that you're doing this thing for myself, which is will help me heal, but dealing with all those messages and all those voices in your head that are going, you know you're letting people down, you're letting people down, you're doing this, you're doing that, and to just be able to sit with those almost and let them pass.

Jules Rogers: 12:26

And then the more you do it with everything, really it's creating that new neural pathway by doing it. The more you do it, the easier it gets because it becomes familiar and you also you get the evidence of like, oh yeah. But when I did do it and I got through that uncomfortableness and the discomfort of setting it, it got easier because people then, if I say it a few times, they're like don't expect the old me to you know they they have to have that time to adjust to the new me and the new answers that they're going to get. So I think it's that having patience and time just to sit with that discomfort and let it kind of flow out and kind of be what it is yeah, totally, and you think you know that that whole, you know we you mentioned guilt earlier and, um, I remember thinking the same.

Jackie Baxter: 13:21

You know that it's selfish to put yourself first, and being selfish is something that we've always been told is something that we shouldn't be. And I remember the um analogy of the oxygen masks on the plane. Um, really helped me, um, but I never understood that before. You know, I got on the plane and they do the safety demonstration and they're like, always put on your mask before helping others and I'm like, well, why would you do that? Surely you would help someone else if they were struggling. Um, you know, you could put your own own one on afterwards, and it makes so much more sense to me now. It's like, well, you're, you're no use to other people if you don't take care of yourself. Um, and I think you know that's so much more evident maybe in in recovery. Um, because particularly people who do have pairing responsibilities outside of themselves, you know you've got to look after your kids, but, yeah, you've still got to look after yourself first, but it must be incredibly difficult.

Jules Rogers: 14:20

I think, yes, it is. It's incredibly difficult and I think parenting guilt is just massive anyway, and then you put illness on top of it. It's like you really add to the guilt even more. Um, so it's creating that kind of creating that kind of self-compassion for yourself, that which I think is quite an alien concept within our culture of like being able to be kind to yourself and put yourself first, like you're saying. It's that selfishness. But if we can't kind of put our needs first, we can't serve others.

Jules Rogers: 15:01

And I got to the point with my recovery with my illness not my recovery with my illness where I made a really strong commitment that I was going to put getting better above everything else. It's like almost like you've got to get to the bottom of like the worst bit, to like then make that commitment. And that's when my biggest boundary came into place of like right, my health and getting better is the most important thing. And I'd reached that point where I knew if I put that as a boundary, I would be able to help my family and I would be able to not have those feelings of being a burden and all that. But I knew in the in the short term it was going to be difficult and I was going to almost become more of a burden. Maybe that's kind of how I envisaged it in my head. I'm not sure I was, but I had that slight image in my head that I would be, that slight image in my head that I would be.

Jules Rogers: 16:05

But yeah, once I'd made that strong commitment, it kind of was easier to uphold that boundary and I used to have a mantra in my head. Once I made that commitment, I put a mantra in my head. So if somebody asked me something like I don't know, do you want to go out for a coffee? It would be like, is this going to help me heal? And if I couldn't say yes to that statement, I said I have to. I'm just going to say no. And I missed out on a lot of things. But ultimately I got well and I've been able to do so many more coffees and everything in the since then. Um, but it is.

Jackie Baxter: 16:40

It kind of took I had to get to a certain place to be able to put that really strong boundary in place that makes a lot of sense to me as well, because I spent a lot of time doing all the wrong things to start with, and I pushed and I pushed and I pushed and I pushed and I pushed and then eventually I had a sort of one of the worst weeks I'd had.

Jackie Baxter: 17:00

Um, you know, it was absolutely awful and you know, kind of did hit rock bottom in some ways, and that was the point where I said, right, this isn't working, I need to try something different. And you know, the journey was still pretty non-linear after that. But you know, I think I think you know that idea of kind of you know, you have to hit a pretty low point before you put a boundary in or you start to look elsewhere, or you explore, you know, whatever it is that that you kind of turn that corner in. I think often that does come from that kind of lowest moment, which is pretty brutal, isn't it? But maybe just gives you a different perspective or something.

Jules Rogers: 18:26

It's almost like I didn't see it coming. It wasn't that. I was like. I felt I was sliding and sliding. It was weird. It was just like something changed in my head and I don't know whether I got angry or I got. In all honesty, I can't remember all the emotions that went with that decision and whether I just got to that point. Right, I'm done with this because I, like you said, I always knew I was going to get better. I just didn't know when it was going to be and it was like right, I really want to make this. I've got to put everything into this so that it can happen like as soon as you know, as soon as it can, because I've given it a hundred percent yeah, and it's.

Jackie Baxter: 19:11

It's really interesting because I think, you know, it's maybe through setting that boundary that we then set ourselves up to believe more. I don't, I don't know.

Jules Rogers: 19:25

There was like a switch. I think it was like it gave me more determination. I think is probably what I would say. And then I really delved into what boundaries do I need to put in place so that this can happen?

Jackie Baxter: 19:40

So it's like you're all in kind of thing, aren't you?

Jules Rogers: 19:44

Yeah, exactly yeah. Not nothing else matters, but this is definitely, I learned, the bit where I was going to be able to put myself as the number one priority for this moment in time. Number one priority for this moment in time. But however long it takes, I am going to allow myself to be the top priority. And it worked. That's that I. It's that determination, I think, that kind of, and that consistency, consistently doing it every day, asking myself that question of is this going to help me heal? And being really concerned. I miss, you know it's. I dealt with a lot of um, sadness and discomfort and I felt like that FOMO a lot of the time because I was saying no, but I wouldn't change it. It now, no, I'm well.

Jackie Baxter: 20:34

It kind of paid off yeah, absolutely, it was worth it. Yeah, um, I remember someone saying to me and I can't remember who it was um, but you know it's like, if you have a goal, it's like what are you willing to give up in order to get there? Yeah, um, and you know that that's something that only you can work out for yourself. Yeah, um, and I think that is is so true. But then you know, okay, then you say, right, well, I'm a single parent with three children and I struggle with finances. I don't have benefits, I don't have financial support, I have to work. Um, you know that that sort of situation where you, you don't have support, you don't have any money that you can rely on, um becomes much more difficult.

Jules Rogers: 21:25

I think, maybe in that situation, to be able to put yourself first yeah, I feel that I was very privileged in that I did have like a partner that was able to support me and I was able to get benefits that could help me as well. Um, admittedly, they're really hard to get, which is exhausting in the process, but that's a whole different topic. Um, but I think even even if you're in that kind of incredibly difficult position, even very small boundaries can still be really beneficial, like knowing certain things, like I don't know. For an example, I have a client I work with and she's a single mum and everything, but at certain times she will every day she will have a kind of her relaxation period at the end of the day. So she's there, she's in the house and she does this certain like routine of like relaxation and stuff that is so beneficial for her and that is a boundary that has kind of created that is really beneficial and that, even if it's five minutes, two minutes, whatever you can do, but something like that as a boundary.

Jules Rogers: 22:49

And then maybe, once we start making a boundary and start, if you start that two minutes, maybe you might be able to squeeze in three minutes one day and just those tiny little steps will build up to the big leap in the end, because a big leap is just many, many, many little steps and I think if you do lots of little steps, it's actually especially when you have a dysregulated nervous system. Those little steps don't upset the nervous system in any way because it's able to just gradually get used to each of those little steps rather than a big leap, which is upsetting for a nervous system, and then you often end up coming back quite considerably. So I think, yeah, even if you can only find a few minutes, just just the concept of setting a boundary can be quite liberating, that you have given yourself those few minutes each day, that you're worth it, just for that little bit of time yeah, I completely agree, because I think, um, again, we were saying just before we hit record, how, you know, I, I'm an all or nothing person.

Jackie Baxter: 24:03

You know, if it's not 100, it's not worth doing. You know, and I see this in myself now and I keep it a bit more under control than I used to, but you know, it's, it still sort of creeps out here and there and you know, I think you know, as you say, in recovery it's not about those big things. Um, it's actually, you know, the big things come from the consistently setting the boundary, the consistently doing your two minutes of breathing a day, the consistently. You know, whatever it is that actually, yeah, maybe lots of smaller boundaries are actually much more powerful than one big one. Anyway, you know, and it's going to be very different for different people as well, isn't it? You know, it's like you know, recoveries are never all going to be the same, because everybody's body is different, everyone's situation is different, so it really is tailoring it to each individual person. What's going to work for you?

Jules Rogers: 25:00

individual person what's going to work for you? Yeah, and I think it is learning to really listen to yourself and your body and your mind and go what? What do I need to be able to heal? It's that thing about, isn't it? Our bodies do have the ability to heal, once we get out of the way and let them do it.

Jackie Baxter: 25:15

And it's learning what things we can do to kind of step out of the way to let let that healing happen yeah, I'm kind of getting the image of like building a dam and in order to build the dam, to hold back the water, you've actually got to kind of move some of the water out of the way in order to build the dam kind of thing. Um, and it's, yeah, you know, I think, um, maybe a boundary is is holding back something, to give yourself that space to heal, to use my, my water analogy but, and I think sometimes it kind of almost feels that you do have to stop certain things for the move forward to happen.

Jules Rogers: 25:58

So there is stuff you have to kind of not give up but put on hold, maybe for a bit, to let that boundary be able to kind of if you're using a dam analogy to have all the bricks so they can solidify and get into place, um, so that they become really strong, and then that will be solid and and then you get to the image, I guess, of like where little bits can come over the top of it and it can be okay, but it's not all going to gush over at once, so it will hold strong yeah, I mean, it's that regulated nervous system, I suppose, isn't it?

Jackie Baxter: 26:38

that's that's able to to handle what life throws at it rather than crumble beneath it. And I think you know you kind of alluded to this earlier and you think one. For me, certainly, one of the hardest boundaries sometimes was holding myself back when I was feeling slightly better. So you know, you know it's like oh, I've got a bit of energy today, I'm going to use all of it, you know, and then I would inevitably end up doing too much and then feeling like rubbish and then beating myself up about it, and you know. So setting that boundary of I don't have to use a hundred percent of everything all the time, I'm not just being completely alien to me, because of course you would want to put 100 in, because if you're not, you're being lazy.

Jules Rogers: 27:24

So that was a whole um, several therapy sessions, let's say and you know, I think that, as a boundary, is probably one of the most beneficial boundaries to learn to put in place, to stay well, because once you, you kind of say, oh, I'm recovered, there is still that part of you that is definitely within me, the striving part, that will go and just keep pushing and keep pushing and so learning the ability to almost hold yourself back. It's like you're on a horse with the reins, isn't it, and you've just got to hold it and hold it and hold it to stop it just galloping off at 100 miles an hour and to kind of just hold it so that you don't burn out and use too much energy too soon yes, and I think, yeah, that that for me was one of the hardest things, in some ways harder than saying no to things that I, you know, sort of had to say no to.

Jackie Baxter: 28:26

But I, you said you know that, like everything, you know, it gets easier the more you do it. I remember the first time that I voluntarily said no to something so this was after I'd recovered, so I didn't have to say no to this thing. I just remember thinking no, yeah, I don't want to do that. And I said no to it and I was like you know, I literally wanted to stand up there and sort of flex my muscles and go yeah, you know kind of thing. It was ridiculous, but I just remember it being this kind of like because I'd never done that before, like literally never done it before in my life, until I became unwell, where it, you know, became a necessity. So, yeah, I think it is is something like that's easier, but it is hard for me.

Jules Rogers: 29:12

I was going to say, on that point I'm the same in that I found having children kind of before I had them I was better at being stronger on my boundaries and then having had children and rightly or wrongly and stuff, but you end up giving a lot being being a parent and especially when they're little you have to give up just because they need so much of you physically that I I really lost lots of boundaries and I found it. They became so blurry and I found it really hard to work out how to put boundaries back in place and it was like I was having to remember for me, how do you do boundaries again. Remember for me, how do you do boundaries again. Because it was like I spent this big chunk of time where they'd kind of all washed away and so it was going no, remember, remember who you are, remember what you want and you're not just a moment.

Jackie Baxter: 30:12

You know you're, who are you, and I had to kind of go through that process again of remembering who I am, what do I want, and then learn how to boundary around that as well and I think you know we we go through this not the same experience, obviously, but you know, when we become unwell, you know we go from the version of us that existed beforehand into this unwell version and it's like we have to work out who we are now and it feels kind of governed, doesn't it, by this chaos that's going on in our body that we don't understand, and you know all of the kind of stuff around that. And you know, as you say, it's kind of protecting your energy and your ability to recover and, okay, what does my body need and how can I give it that? Um, and then coming out of the illness is like the opposite experience, where you're like, who am I now and how do I protect that? Because certainly I've not spoken to a single person who's recovered and they've said that they're the same person, that they were before, um, and I think almost everyone says that they're a better person and they're a happier person and and all of that. But you are a very different person.

Jackie Baxter: 31:22

So it's like you've put on this whole new set of clothes and you have to work out which colors go together. Um, or maybe you a total clashing color person like me, but um, reds and pinks all together? Absolutely so it's. It's this kind of practice of and and as you change, and I guess this is a process that we will all go through throughout life, illness or not. You know, we change, don't we, as things happen to us, or we physically change as we age and different experiences happen and we find that we need new boundaries or different boundaries. So it's this kind of like skill for life, isn't it? We learn it because we have to, but actually it's a really good one, kind of have in the bank and I think it's really important that point of like how they change.

Jules Rogers: 32:38

It's like we can't be too rich, you know. It's like accepting that they will evolve because life is continually evolving, and it's that skill of learning. Once you learn how to put boundaries in place, learning that they can change and they can move slightly and during through recovery, like the boundaries you may have when you're first starting recovery will be very different to the ones when you're nearing the end of recovery, because your tolerance will be greater and it's and you will have learned more and you will have more skills. So it's they, it's accepting that they don't, they don't need to stay the same, but it's just they need to be there in whatever form, is protecting you and your energy for wherever you are in that part of your life.

Jackie Baxter: 33:28

Yeah, absolutely, and you know it comes back to the what are my needs, doesn't it? And that your needs do change, you know, sometimes day day, um, or certainly over longer periods of time. You know you don't always have the same requirements, so those boundaries do have to have some amount of flexibility, maybe more, and I suppose it comes back to sort of awareness of our needs, doesn't it? To be able to readjust those boundaries as we go through?

Jules Rogers: 33:56

Yeah.

Jackie Baxter: 33:59

So I was going to say what are the most kind of common barriers to setting boundaries, but I think we've sort of tackled that one, haven't we?

Jules Rogers: 34:06

The biggest barrier, I think, is that learning how to deal when we did cover this slightly, the discomfort and the guilt, and how you setting a boundary for yourself can annoy other people. And to be okay that other people aren't so happy with this new boundary, because maybe you were the person that they went to and you always said yes and they were like, oh, I'll go and ask Jules, she'll always say it, she'll just do it for me. And by you saying no, they're now having to do that stuff themselves or go to the effort of finding somebody else that will say yes. So there's a slight annoyance from them that oh, this is more work for me now, but I have to work out how this work's going to get done. So it's just knowing that you sit that stuff out and it will get easier once they kind of work out who this slightly different version of you is.

Jules Rogers: 35:03

And, yeah, like the guilt and they, I would say, would be the kind of hurdles to setting your boundaries and I guess getting you might have, you might set a boundary and it might need slight adjustment and knowing that that's okay. Like you know, it's okay. It's not quite right, but I can just jiggle that slightly and just have that trust within yourself that you, you can make those adjustments and it's okay yeah, absolutely, and it gets.

Jackie Baxter: 35:36

It comes back to that sort of perfectionism thing that so many of us kind of suffer with. Um, you know that, actually, try it out and it's probably not going to be perfect the first time you do it, but you know it, it will be something and then, as you say, you can refine it. Um, I think one of the things you know definitely the guilt over kind of like I can't believe I'm saying no, I'm letting these people down, it's all my fault, I'm a failure. You know all of that. But certainly I always felt the need to over explain myself as well. I couldn't just say I can't do that. I would then have to give a million excuses and offer a load of alternatives and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Jackie Baxter: 36:15

Um, and I remember, I remember who it was, or I would credit them, um, but apparently they have the saying in the states and I don't know if it's everywhere, but certainly in parts of the states where it's like that doesn't work for me and I was like that's so rude. You know, how can you say that you know without an explanation or whatever? And now I'm thinking that's so on it, you know, because you don't know anyone an explanation. Um, you know you could say I'm sorry that doesn't work for me, um, but actually you know that gets the message across, doesn't it? You know that doesn't work for me. I don't owe you an explanation. You know conversation over.

Jules Rogers: 36:58

You know it's like no is a complete sentence and and exactly, and it's like the moment we start over explaining. It makes it so much harder to keep that boundary in place, because it gives them the ability to go but what if you did? What if the? Oh, maybe if you did, if you keep going with that? No, I'm sorry, that doesn't work for me. It doesn't give that door, that open door, to question it in any way, which, in a sense, is easier, then, than giving all those explanations yeah, totally.

Jackie Baxter: 37:33

Again, I have done that and it felt really, really uncomfortable. But I think, as you say, we sort of need to keep doing it and it does get easier and we get better at identifying our needs and things. I think as well, because I definitely remember situations where I thought, well, I think I need to set some boundaries, but I don't really know what boundaries I need to set or how to do them, or you know, and it feels so overwhelming, doesn't it? To sort of you know, there's so many things, where do I start?

Jules Rogers: 38:09

Yeah, and I think sometimes that can be asking maybe people that you really trust about, like I'm aware that I need to put some boundaries in place, but I'm really struggling. Have you got any suggestions of how that might help? Because it can be, if it's like such a new phenomenon to you to set boundaries, it's like where, yeah, where do I start? So if you have those kind of trusted people that you know have got your back and are going to be, you know, honest with you, to maybe ask for that kind of help from them?

Jackie Baxter: 38:49

Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. And you know what? There's something quite vulnerable about that, isn't it? Because it feels like asking for help and you know, know, I think also sometimes that vulnerability can lead to greater connection. So you can almost say I'm really struggling, I don't really know what to do here, but I know I need to do something. Can you, you know, help me work this out? Um, and actually, rather than you becoming more of a burden, you actually maybe foster that greater connection plus you get your needs met. Burden, you actually maybe foster that greater connection plus you get your needs met. So it could actually be a nicer outcome to have come from that, even though it came from a position of you know kind of thing. So, just to finish, I suppose if you had like maybe one tip or two tips you can have two if you need them um, what would be your kind of like top tips for where to start with setting boundaries?

Jules Rogers: 39:46

I think it's those areas maybe of your life that you feel if I could do a tweak in this area, it would have the biggest impact on my energy or my recovery. If I tweaked this this bit here, um, because I think we mostly have a sense of things the activities we do or the interactions we have that are the most energy depleting, and the ones that are most energy depleting, I would say, is a good sign of where you definitely would be the best place to start with a boundary. So, yeah, I would, I would look at the things that we, that you do in your life that deplete your energy the most, and maybe start there, because, also, you will get the biggest bonus from doing that I. So I think that's probably where, I would say, to start yeah, I think that's great advice.

Jackie Baxter: 40:46

You know, biggest bang for your buck. Um, yeah, then once you've sort of cleared the decks a little bit, then you're able to start to see a little bit more what else is going on and maybe where some of those other boundaries need to go in. Yeah, absolutely, jules. Thank you so much. This has been really fun catching up again and actually I've learned loads as well, because I've just realized how many more boundaries I need in my life. So, thank you so much for sharing, and I think there's been loads of, loads of really helpful stuff here.

Jules Rogers: 41:20

So thank you. It's been so lovely to chat again and it I haven't got it all sorted. I still need to keep having this refresh. So it's been great having this conversation because, as we were saying before, my life has been really busy recently and I think I need to do a kind of check of where my boundaries are and to just double check that I've got them where they need to be. So thank you for the refresh.

Jackie Baxter: 41:44

I think we're both a way to do a boundary audit, aren't we?

Jules Rogers: 41:48

yeah.