195 - Olympic Insights on the Path to Wellness - Katie's Recovery Story

I am joined by Katie Brennan & Andrea Henkel Burke to share Katie’s Long Covid recovery, how nervous system work unlocked capacity, and why an Olympian’s playbook of pacing, breath, joint maps and cognitive drills can fit chronic illness. The theme is small, smart inputs that prevent crashes and build a stronger baseline.

• early symptoms, second infection and severe brain fog
• switching from push-through to deliberate pacing
• vagus nerve, breath and eye movement drills
• athlete mindset applied to recovery
• gentle mobility plus cognitive tasks for safer gains
• stacking tiny wins to raise baseline capacity
• diet shifts for gut health and lower inflammation
• redefining recovery through daily function and humour
• practical advice to start small and self-assess

Connect with Katie & Andrea: 

ThriveNinety Website: www.thriveninety.com 

Recovery Kitchen Essentials book: https://www.thriveninety.com/recovery-kitchen

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Chapters

• 1:51 Welcome And Guest Intros
• 2:26 Katie’s Background And Early Context
• 6:19 The Crash: Symptoms And Daily Limits
• 12:25 Second Infection And Brain Fog Spiral
• 13:22 Choosing Health: Research And A Plan
• 15:16 Nervous System First: Early Tools
• 18:37 Enter Andrea: Class And New Methods
• 24:19 Athlete Mindset Meets Pacing
• 29:48 Gentle Drills, Cognitive Tasks, Buy-In
• 35:38 Defining Recovery And Milestones
• 40:39 Gut, Diet, And Ongoing Gains
• 46:33 Advice: Start Small, Accept Signals
• 51:54 Resources And Thrive 90

Transcript

Jackie Baxter: 0:56

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Long COVID Podcast. I am delighted to be joined today by Katie and Andrea. Now, I've never had two people come along for a recovery story before. So I'm really excited to hear this one. As I said, this is a recovery story. This is Katie's story. And we're gonna hear what worked, what didn't work, and what recovery looks like. So, guys, thank you so much for being here. It is lovely to meet you, and uh I'm excited to hear the story.

Katie Brennan: 1:29

Great, thanks so much for having us. Um, I'm Katie Brennan, um, and I was impacted by long COVID um in the really early days. Uh, so I got it in March 2020 in one of the first waves um to hit the UK, uh, as I was based in London at the time. Um, and yeah, really uh delighted to be here and you know thank you uh for everything that that you've done for the community. And I think we're really excited to kind of share uh my story and also to pull Andrea in um and talk a little bit about uh how I guess some some tools and tips from the high performance world can can help.

Andrea Henkel Burke: 2:11

Yeah, hello. So I'm Andrea Henkel Burke and I competed for Germany at the Olympic level for like the Olympic team for Olympics in Bioslawn. It's called county skiing and shooting. And so I'm every time a fan of like how can I keep my body functioning and also on a high level, not just uh while I was competing, but also after I stopped competing and became a personal trainer and learned much more about my body and how I could have performed even better. And it was really interesting, but now it's also good to support others to basically support a recovery and their body systems. And I'm basically part of Katie's recovery story, which is which is great, and I'm very grateful for it.

Katie Brennan: 3:00

So um so before I got sick, um, you know, I was I was living in the UK. I'm American by background, but um, but I've been in the UK for um or a number of years. I was there for um almost 20 years uh in the end before I moved back to the States the last few years. Uh, and you know, was an economist by background, working in the National Health Service, um, doing population health management work and um supporting uh care improvement, um, which was amazing, and I was so fortunate to be able to work with really talented clinicians and also have access to a lot of great data on people's health conditions and looking at complex conditions, which you know I think is is relevant to kind of this story because uh there were a lot of conversations about people with complex conditions, complex needs, who maybe you know weren't being you know fully served or getting fully better through the normal kind of care pathways, or you know, they get diagnosed, or they maybe wouldn't get fully diagnosed, but they had issues that were kind of multi-system issues like you know, pain, um heart rate variability, uh, you know, diagnosed with low-level mental health issues or depression, anxiety, you know, things that now we you know people in the long COVID community can really identify with. Um, and you know, I think I was fortunate to have a little bit of exposure to different treatments and support options that maybe you know were not as mainstream for those groups. But I know that that knowledge of that space was something that uh I ended up coming back to when I found myself on the other side of those statistics. Um, generally speaking, you know, I had I just had um had a little one and was you know kind of living a busy uh, I guess suburban lifestyle, commuting into central London every day and young family and you know, pretty high stress job I loved, but uh but it was it was an intense life, um, you know, always on the go. And you know, looking back, I'm probably you know in in a pretty heightened state uh throughout. You know, there weren't there wasn't a lot of downtime, and I wasn't always the best at you know carving out those spaces, even though I was exercising and I thought I was eating well and all of the things that you try to do. But I think you know on the other side of of the recovery, realized that that those, you know, I probably wasn't getting a lot of that right and that my my body was at risk. I think I'd also um uh had a a C-section and was you know kind of recovering from all of all of you know the kind of you know major abdominal surgery and um That's not nothing. That's quite major. Exactly. You know, and and then you know all of the all the kind of you know hormonal shifts that happen um after pregnancy, etc. etc. So, you know, I think that um to say that there's just a lot going on um personally, professionally, and with my body is is probably a good scene setter.

Jackie Baxter: 6:27

I can relate on some level to what you're saying because I got ill at a very similar time to you. I was also March 2020 um in the UK, and also let's say there was a lot going on. And you know, for me, I took this kind of like, oh, for goodness sake, you asked for this. Um, you know, my first response to anything is to blame myself. Um, you know, self-compassion is still something I'm working on, and uh and you know, that that blame is not true, and it's also not helpful. And there's this amazing quote, I think it might be Maya Angelou, the one that goes something like, um, I did the best that I could with what I had. Now I know better, I do better. Um, and I think that is one of the let's say gifts or silver linings, maybe of an experience like this is that we learn these lessons in the worst possible way. But what happens when we come out the other side is that we do know better and we do do better, um, and we are healthier and more resilient as a result. But my goodness, it's a pretty bloody awful experience to go through to get those lessons, isn't it?

Katie Brennan: 7:41

Completely. I think that sums it up. You know, that you know back and you think, my goodness, how did I not realize that in the past? But I think, you know, like you say, it's just it's not it's not always part of the conversations that people have about how to look after yourself. And um, you know, I think that's where you know talking about it is is really helpful. And you know, if you can help other people get a nugget that changes their perspective, then that's that's a wonderful thing. Um, but yeah, it's it's just it's so it's so strange. And you know, I I had a fairly mild um case of COVID. You know, I got I got pretty sick for about a week, but you know, it was um and had some breathing difficulty, but I was home. Um, and you know, I'm I'm sure I I picked it up on on the on the trains and in the office uh you know during that time when everybody was starting to get sick. Um and you know, I was really fortunate that no one um in my house got sick because I isolated very early. Um so I got to watch my daughter taking her first steps out the back window of uh in our garden, which you know was uh was you know lovely and a little sad all at the same time, but I was it was great to be able to do that. Um but I think that you know I you know I figured after a few days that I would start to feel better and then you know I would get back to normal because I was a pretty healthy person. Uh so I thought, and you know, I just it the you know this the kind of that strange confluence of things just happened where I you know I never really got better. Um I continued to have headaches which I'd never had in my life before that. Um, you know, I was having uh you know heart rate spikes, um, breathing difficulties, you know, the energy levels were through the floor. You know, I I was having to stop often like halfway up our stairs, and you know, we did not have a massive house. It was, you know, we had one flight of stairs, and I'd have to stop um part way through. Um, you know, but even sitting on like work calls, you know, suddenly I would just have to take a minute because my heart rate would just, you know, go be so elevated. Um, and also looking back, I had really odd things like my pupils were dilated and you know, things that didn't at the time make total sense to me, but with the benefit of hindsight and more education, you know, kind of slotted in to really be pointing to issues with my nervous system and being kind of stuck in fight or flight mode. Um, but I think what was great was just being able to, you know, sort of maybe not put the pieces together right away, but that I was able to kind of clock those symptoms and then, you know, sort of use that, you know, when I was sort of finally ready to really grasp the nettle and um start to think about recovery. And I think, you know, I have to say that it took me probably a year and a half of doing all of the wrong things. You know, I think I was trying to push through because that's how I'd always gotten through everything. And, you know, if I just give it a little bit more time, my body will just self-correct. You know, these are all the kind of familiar thing.

Jackie Baxter: 10:58

I'm uh people listening will not be able to see, but I am nodding and internally laughing because that's exactly what I did. If it's not working, you just need to try harder.

Katie Brennan: 11:07

Yeah, that's great, because that's that's gotten me through everything else so far. So, you know, just go back to that, that tried and test it. Um, you know, and and you know, and I think it just got to the point eventually where I, you know, we'd um we decided to, you know, move back to the US and you know, changed country and got another relatively high pressure job. And you know, I just wasn't getting better. It was, you know, I was feeling even worse. Um, and I actually uh ended up getting COVID for a second time and you know felt horrendous and kind of lost any of the moderate gains that I had. And that's when you know I'd been impacted a bit by brain fog, but it really hit a new level with that second infection. And I, you know, I went from you know being able to be a little bit slow and you know, certainly not feeling like myself, but you know, I couldn't even really string a sentence together. Um, you know, and and in the roles that I was in, it just it felt completely unsustainable. You know, I was having to, you know, giving a board presentation and having to write out every word that I was gonna say and it just you know to remember and be able to actually you know share the information and you know, and it still didn't really work. Um so you know, I I ended up taking some time out and saying, you know, I really need to prioritize my health, and I need to figure out a way to get better because you know, COVID isn't going away, it's gonna continue to cycle around, unfortunately, but that's where we are. And I needed to work out a way to feel better. Um, you know, I also at that point had a had a two-year-old, two and a half-year-old, you know, and so you know, when you when you're dealing with brain fog issues and you have you know a curious, you know, very engaged little human being who's interrupting you every 10 seconds, you know, it's a wonderful thing, but it doesn't help you and help your brain function because you can't concentrate on anything at the best of times. And you know, I was really conscious that you know this wasn't the life that I wanted, and it certainly wasn't the life that she needed, and you know, I wasn't able to be the parent that I'd always figured that I would be, um, and that you know she really needed to thrive. So I think all of those things were like a perfect storm, and um I started, you know, I I stopped working and I started just diving into research properly. Um, and I felt so fortunate to be able to have you know enough capacity to do that for starters, but also you know, some of the background that I had with working with the NHS and some research skills to you know be able to you know read papers and kind of understand them and know where to go. Um and you know, looking at that, you know, and tapping into the community of lived experience, you know, and including you know through this podcast, which was a wonderful resource. Um, and so thank you, thank you for that, and and to all your guests uh for sharing some of their struggles in in those early days. Um, you know, I I was able to kind of you know go pull start to pull together, you know, a hypothesis that I could sort of test out, which was, you know, I'm gonna pretend that this is, you know, really my nervous system is sort of the main place that I want to start to focus on. Um and you know, and that was that, and started to, you know, do some of do some of act proactively some of the work to to balance and regulate the nervous system. And it, you know, it it worked, it worked far beyond what I could have imagined was possible. Um, and that was really the start. Um, and I started to feel better. I I know I I wrote on a post on a post-it note, um, which I keep on my desk at that time. I just want to have one hour that is symptom-free. I just want to have like my head clear just for just for one hour to feel what that is again. Um, and also I want to be able to go for a run, um, just you know, one more time kind of thing. Um, but actually, what I found was pretty quickly, you know, I was able to do a lot more, and my ability and my capacity um increased, my energy levels improved, my head started to clear. Um, you know, I feel like I got my sense of humor back, which I just didn't have the capacity to even contemplate. Um, and then uh I was well enough to go to an exercise class that everyone had recommended very highly, which was on Monday mornings, outdoor all year long in a very cold climate, but very refreshing. Um, and this happens to be a class that Andrea uh was was running. Um, and you know, it was definitely a lot of fitness work, but but sprinkled in was a tremendous amount of things around um increasing and improving connections between the body and the brain, improving nervous system functioning. Um, you know, and this was amazing, and I think really elevated my ability in my recovery. And I think at that point, um little while after that, Andrea and I sort of, you know, we're having having coffee and had a conversation and said, you know, I think that there's a lot of people who could really use these tools, you know, not just for performance. And she obviously comes from that like elite performance background, but there's ways to leverage a lot of this into you know, because a lot of them are so simple, they don't take much energy to do, kind of perfect for people who are impacted by long-term conditions. Um, and so then we we got together and started, you know, putting together a you know what a recovery pathway would really look like.

Jackie Baxter: 17:12

Now I'm really excited to bring Andrea in on the conversation here. Um, but before we do that, you mentioned that you had done some nervous system work that allowed you to get to this point where you were able to go to join this exercise class. Are you able to just say a little bit about what some of those things you did before we move on to the next phase?

Katie Brennan: 17:36

Absolutely. So I think that it was um initially a combination of things like um you know working on the vagus nerve in particular. Um, and you know, just because that was kind of like the hook, that was that was sort of what I what I had. Um, and you know, eye exercises and eye movements, um, you know, a little breathe, you know, some breathing definitely in there. Um, and I also was very fortunate. I had a friend who did kind of nervous system-focused massage, and um, you know, I had a couple of sessions there to kickstart things, which was really helpful. Um, but what was really great was I think just starting to tap into pacing in a really deliberate way, starting to really hone in on my own symptoms and starting to kind of view them not as the enemy, but as really, really useful signals from the body that you know that allowed me to you know do as much exercise as I could. But the second I started to feel symptoms creeping in, then I would just take that as a sign to back off. So I think that that allowed me to not be frightened to do activity, but also to avoid crashes and and and post-exertional malaise, um, which was amazing and meant that you know my system wasn't constantly being overstretched and kind of gave me some room to heal, which was great. Um, but I think that a lot of the you know the nervous system activity and the bundle of kind of tools that I had at the start was was relatively limited, um, but was still really effective, as I said, in terms of those, you know, utilizing those eye exercises and a little bit of kind of stretching work. Um, but I was astounded uh, you know, going to the exercise class and suddenly you know working with Andrea, who had this big bucket of of other tools, um, you know, how how much uh impact those things had and you know and had in real time. It was like you could do the self-assessments and you could, you know, you could feel the benefit, you could see the increased um mobility and just kind of how it just released and loosened your whole system kind of instantly was pretty remarkable, and then um was able to start to utilize those tools, you know, throughout the day, um, you know, kind of doing doing them regularly in the mornings and then in the evenings, but you know, even like standing at the kitchen counter and having a chat, you know, you could just feel yourself tightening up or you could feel symptoms coming on, and then you know, just do do a few kind of ankle tilts or mobility drills. Um, you know, no one even knows you're doing it, and they make so much impact, and suddenly you've got a little reset, and you know, your your energy levels are back up, your symptoms are down, and and away you go.

Jackie Baxter: 21:19

Yeah. And it's like when you're in that kind of sort of initial stages of recovery where you're starting to kind of pull together a few things, you actually don't want to be overwhelmed by too many. It's actually finding what are the few that have the biggest bang for your buck? Um, you know, what are your biggest wins? And then being consistent with them and starting to learn your own body, isn't it? And learn your own needs. You know, what does my body need in this moment? Does it need stillness or does it need movement? Um, you know, does it need a breath exercise, or does it need me to journal out some emotions? Um, or you know, what what is it in that that moment? And then it's as you start to then see a little bit of improvement and gain a little bit of capacity, that's where things change, and maybe you want access or you get access to different um different techniques and strategies. And um, I'm really excited to hear now about um the big bucket that you just described of uh sort of nervous system tools that uh that you bring to this, Andrea. So um please tell us about the the class and your role here and all of these big buckets of tools.

Andrea Henkel Burke: 22:32

So Katie came into class and I didn't know about that she had long COVID and she just came and was it was fun, it was great having someone else joining class, and I strangled in between because it's an hour class, so it's like I cannot like do an hour wheel training with everyone because there are different levels in class. So I strangled in those tools when you use your use your body basically, but getting some cognitive tasks at the same time, and then it's like silly, silly exercises, silly movements, but they come they become a totally different like skill set or like uh like ask if you like you just like put one cognitive uh like like task on top of it, for example. And it's fun, everyone is laughing, which is like a part of the whole thing, and then also creating this new connection in the brain by by using your body, really, because like those people come to an exercise class, so I need to use my body, and and that's what I did, but still um having an effect on the brain. And this can be in different ways, like this like cognitive skills, uh cognitive skets, but also just simple, very uh like concentrated joint movements, and then also having self-assessments or the people in the class see what it actually does when you just tilt your angle as an example, and then it's uh it's a totally different buy-in. And also we can adjust to what is needed depending on what the self-assessment tells you because that's then adjustable to your needs. Like someone has to go faster, someone has to go slower, someone has to do a few more, someone has to do a few less. And having this uh like this combination and putting it in class was once giving a little break between other exercises, and then also getting the ready the body ready for actually doing like more exercises throughout a whole hour. And then at some point Katie came to me and said, uh told me her story and said I helped her without knowing I helped her. And she was sitting, remember, she came to my house and asked, Would you be interested in this? This would help so many people, and we can like create this program, and this is like so many people need that. I said, Being interested is the wrong question because it was like it sounded so interesting to me, but but I had to like shift a little bit other things to make space for it. But it's really exciting to have something uh prepared and quasi outlined for which has really an impact.

Katie Brennan: 25:14

Yeah, and I think it's it's been great. Um, you know, and so much of it too is is just having a little bit of a mental shift. I mean, you talk about like what were the kind of the things that really helped kickstart that recovery process, and I think you know what you talked about a little bit in in terms of just that, like acceptance and just really saying this is where I'm at, you know, my body is where it is, and I need to stop comparing myself to what I used to do, or to have that as a as a goal or an expectation that I'm gonna get there tomorrow. But really focusing in on controlling what you're able to control and not worrying about the rest of it, um, you know, which is such a tricky thing, but also it's a super simple thing to do. It's like very freeing when you let go of all of the stuff that you can't do something about and then prioritize and focus on the things that you can. Um, you know, and I and I think that what was great with working with Andrea is that, you know, from that kind of professional athlete perspective, I think that that is like ruthlessly, you know, what that mentality uh often entails is you know, just filtering out all the noise, focusing on the goal, you know, controlling what you're able to control, um, you know, and not worrying and just not letting everything else go.

Andrea Henkel Burke: 26:38

And and then the athlete movement comes in into the whole picture. It's also many people think like train harder, what kind of heart rate, how fast you run this loop. And it's not about it, it's also about that, but it's also like what can we do that we can train on the highest level? And then then pacing is a whole thing, which the athletes do all of the time. We don't go to the cinema when it's um competition season, for example, because it's like it would be not ideal to get anything, or like single, yeah, yeah, or like really focus on no, I cannot go to this party, or if I go and go home early. Like pacing was like uh embedded in my system, and and then also using, of course, diet and nutrition to like um uh feed the body so that it's nourished and can do what you ask it to do, but also have this recovery, good sleep, and all these tools which allow you to basically go to training because then you can do the better training, and when you can do the better training, you can perform better in the competition. So it's a lot about like what else around this training you can do for you, and that's a lot what we also focus when we work with people along COVID. It's like there is a life and life needs to happen, and that's the whole point that life can happen, but what can we do around it so life can be happening on a higher level or in the level which is like uh desired.

Jackie Baxter: 28:08

Yeah, and it's you know, I um I said this to you guys before we started recording, didn't I? Um, about when I spoke to David Petrino and he was talking about the similarities between working with people with long COVID and MECFS and you know, the sort of elite athletes that he was working with. And, you know, he was talking about again that kind of 1%, half percent, you know, the tiny, tiny margins, you know, and with the long COVID MECFS people, it's those tiny, tiny gains, you know. Okay, we can't even do one percent, let's do half a percent. It's still going to start to add up slowly, but it's going to add up and it's going to make a difference. And it's this as you were just describing, you know, that that elite athlete, which on some level is like it's so far the other end of the scale that it's like you can't even comprehend it when you're unwell. But it's those same tiny gains just at the other end of the spectrum, trying to do the most with what you have and get the most out of your body in the most efficient way, whilst not overloading yourself, overtraining, um, you know, pushing yourself too hard. And also exactly like you were just saying, you know, training isn't just the physicality, it isn't just running, it's not just, you know, doing your sport, it's all the other things around it. It's your breath practice, it's your recovery process, it's your nutrition, your hydration, your sleep. And all of these things are just as important, if not more important, maybe in the long COVID MECFS space. So it's, you know, despite being so, so far apart, you know, your elite athletes in your long COVID MECFS, it's amazing how those kind of commonalities do come together, so long as we're approaching it, I think, as you say, in that kind of very careful way. And the goals are very different, aren't they? You know, we're not wanting a PB, we just want to be able to get out of bed.

Andrea Henkel Burke: 30:08

But like a tiny martian, back to the tiny martian, can be in sports when you see like maybe the Olympics assert or a fourth place, and it's like a medal or no medal, and then there's a huge difference, but it's maybe just a point of one second. And then you can also see this difference the same. Can I get uh uh one minute out of bed or maybe two? And like also like um seeing those little differences with this huge impact is very helpful.

Katie Brennan: 30:40

Yeah, and I think that what's really neat, and I think you touched on this, is that um, you know, I think I probably didn't have an appreciation for how much of the the kind of top athlete training regime and just general kind of living regime, you know, didn't involve physically pushing yourself. Um, but I think so much of that translates, and you know, I think that you know, the around the pacing um is you know, there's so many great lessons there, including, you know, looking at you know the level of toxins in your home and environment and the drain that that has on your system without really thinking about it and the capacity that you can create for being able to go out for a walk or do something else that you really love, you know, just by you know thinking about the soaps that you're using at home or the detergents that you have that you know might be uh you know unwittingly taxing your body through the day. Um And also, what's really neat is as Andrea said, you know, a lot of the tools that support the nervous system health and brain-body connections and rebuild some of those connections that may have been impacted or lost by either the virus or by, you know, kind of the implications of not being able to move as much afterwards, are very gentle. And so they're things that you know you can intersperse in a training regime, you know, that to kind of you know fill those gaps without taxing your body, but you can just lift and shift them over so that they're very simple things for people with very limited physical ability to do and do safely, as you say. Um, but I love you know, I think a lot of a lot of these things, you know, like have been uh done, especially some of the the little cognitive drills, you know, like you know, athletes and you know, footballers and everybody trains to get faster. But I think a lot of these tools also help people be more coordinated and more mentally sharp. And I know like Liverpool as an example under Jurgen Klopp, like he brought in a lot of these same types of tools. Um, you know, and you saw the success with like the youth team players coming through, like there's something really magical and special happening there with a very deep bench and capability at the club. Um, you know, and it's not an accident, and uh there's an ability to know what those are and harness these things. Um, you know, and and I think that you know, we've we've been really lucky to to be able to do that and and to help people out um using using some of them.

Andrea Henkel Burke: 33:19

And also from the athlete perspective, uh you need to train on like the training is very like straining, so those recovery tools cannot be like you cannot strain your body even more because then it doesn't grow. So it has to be something gender to like um being able to train at a level, you need to train it.

Jackie Baxter: 33:41

Yeah, that recovery, and like I guess you know, putting this back into the sort of the long COVID ME CFS space, we'd might do some activity. You know, maybe you've built up capacity and you know, you decide to walk out to your garden or something, um, which you know to former person it's nothing, but to person recovering from long COVID or MECFS, you know, it's unthinkable. Um, and then when you do start to think about it, and I think you know, this is where all, as you say, all of these tools start to come in. How do we prep for that activity? How do we lay the groundwork? You know, and and again, you know, you you hear about breath work being used in sports much more, um, you know, and tools like visualization and like the sports world have been using these things for ages. Um, and it's such a powerful tool. So it's like, okay, how do we prep before our activity? And also how do we recover afterwards? You know, we do we walk out to our garden, okay, what do we do after that? Um and the before and after are just as important as the during, if maybe more important than the during. Um, and you know, it's like however you look at these things, whether it's training or whether it's long covered recovery, you know, again, it's these kind of parallels. We're doing a similar thing in a different way with a different approach with different goals. Um, but there are things from both worlds, I think, that you know, um, that do start to come together, which is really very cool. Um, because on the surface of it, you look at the elite athletes and you look at long COVID and MECFS and you think they couldn't be more different. Um so um that's that's amazing. Um now moving on a little bit, you know, you had built capacity up by using some of these tools. You joined the class which had enabled you to get some more, um, you'd met Andrea, who changed your world and you know, started to to build more. What did that kind of full recovery look like? Um how did you kind of know that you were fully recovered?

Katie Brennan: 36:24

Great question, and I think I feel like it's kind of the question that's always out there, you know, because so many people think about recovery as being back to where they were, you know, the the day before they got their COVID infection. Um and you know, for me, I'm space, but I'm much healthier for it. Um so I feel like um, you know, I feel so much more capable, knowledgeable, um, you know, and physically able, mentally able than I was um at that time, which is a really interesting um thing. And you know, I think in terms of recovery, you know, certainly I had some goals and milestones that made me feel like I was recovered, um, in terms of you know, being able to, as I say, you know, go out and run for half an hour again and you know, go out for a hike and not worry about it, and you know, some of the kind of endurance things, um, certainly some of the elements around you know, mental capacity and just you know feeling feeling like I could, you know, do what I wanted to do. Reading and spending time on the computer wasn't a strain anymore. Um, so there was sort of that that that kind of initial layer of recovery that felt like okay, I'm you know, I'm functional again in a way that is helpful for myself and my family, and you know, I can build on this. Um, but you know, what's been remarkable is kind of seeing like the continued improvement, even when I felt like, oh, I'm I'm back, I'm feeling good. And you know, as I said, one of the things that I found that really made me feel like not like myself was you know the the inability to kind of plan, and you know, I was always the the family coordinator, you know, and you know, my husband is amazing, he's like a an and wonder doing administrative stuff, but I was always the the person that would have like the plan and the big picture. And it was like, okay, we're gonna do this this week and this next week. And you know, when I wasn't able to do that because I didn't have the capacity, you know, we all suffered because of that. Um, and I think being able to kind of do that and play that role and you know, kind of you know, feel like myself again, like my brain was working was a huge aspect in my recovery. Um, and I think I mentioned it earlier on, but I felt like also, you know, I had enough capacity that like, you know, my sense of humor came back, you know, which is such a small thing. And it was something I didn't notice that much while I was ill because you know, you're just so underwater, you're trying to just hang on.

Jackie Baxter: 39:07

Life isn't funny when you're sick, is it?

unknown: 39:10

No.

Katie Brennan: 39:12

You know, it's like, and and you know, and and that again, that has an impact on you know how you interact with other people and how you're processing the world. Um, and so that was actually um, you know, not something that was on my tick list, but was a huge thing that when it returned just felt like, wow, this this is I'm back, and this is really great. Um, you know, but I think what's been remarkable, and I think again, kind of taps into that, that that this is there's a there's a tool set and a skills set out there that you know people are using to continually improve their performance, is that I feel like I'm not sure where my where my ceiling is. You know, so I feel really recovered, but I keep kind of enhancing my baseline at the same time. So, you know, I'm excited actually to see where it all lands. Um, you know, but I you know, I think I'm you know, my diet has been transformed. I think, you know, kind of 70-80% of your immune system is in is kind of you know in your gut lining, and that all links up to your nervous system. And you know, I think the knowledge around that was really powerful, and some of the um, again, the the lessons from Andrea and and her world around um how to support gut health, you know, not not just you know eating healthy, and I'm just kind of saying that in air quotes, you know, but I think really focusing on you know an anti-inflammatory diet um was a really big thing. And you know, and and you thinking about recovery, you know, I can I can eat what I what I want, but I also need to pay attention still. So, you know, there are there are some things that I notice that are different in my body. And you know, I don't know if those will ever change, and I don't know if some of that is just because I'm now really used to, you know, my body is adjusted to getting the right thing, and then it's very grumpy with me when I don't put the right thing in it anymore, uh, which is probably not a bad thing. Um, you know, but it's it's been fun uh to be able to pass some of that on to you know to to my daughter as well, uh, who you know it has enjoys, you know, enjoys certainly all of the stuff that she gets at a typical kid's birthday party, but also really likes the you know the kind of the healthier versions of cookies and muffins and stuff that you know that don't have processed sugars and you know, gluten-free and all of those kind of things, um, you know, has also been a really big component that I I now wouldn't get rid of. Um so you know, I think the the recovery word is such an interesting one, but one of the things that I found as part of the journey, which I, you know, I I think is is a really hopeful um message, is that the the benefits once they started to accumulate really stacked up. And like once my once my systems in my body, my nervous system, my metabolic system, my immune system all started to kind of shift through these tools and go in the right direction, it was almost like they were just they were just begging to be put on a self-correction path. And the benefits really stacked up quickly and you know accumulated very, very rapidly once I gave them the right input and the right nudges. Um, and I feel like that was um you know unexpected, but but so exciting and welcome. Um, you know, and it again, I think, as you were saying, that teaches you a lot about your body's capacity to heal if you're giving it the right inputs.

Jackie Baxter: 43:06

And it comes back to that greater awareness, but also knowing better and doing better, doesn't it? You know, and you know, I think as we get older as well, you know, it's it's also taking as best care of ourselves as we can because we want to be as healthy as we can for as long as we can. So finally, I normally ask what advice would you give yourself now with the benefit of hindsight? And I think you guys will both have some insight on this. Obviously, Katie, what do you think you would have wanted to know? Um, but Andrea, maybe what did you tell her and she didn't listen? Um, or what do you think that she needed to know?

Andrea Henkel Burke: 43:53

Um, so maybe first uh there's also again a correlation when I was competing. Of course, this was not always good. Like in to be on this team, in the German Baseland team back in the in this time, you had to be on a podium, and otherwise you get kicked off the team. And I had like two bad years in it. And I like at this point I said to myself, okay, I need to like do the things I know which will be helpful for me. Um, to not need to play myself when I'm 60 years old and look back to it. So it's like maybe I don't know everything, and my meanwhile, I know I didn't know back days everything I could have known, but I did the things I knew helped are helpful, and I didn't do the things I knew are not helpful. And this got me back on the team. And I had my best 10 years of my career. And like looking back, I always know more now because like I'm not stopping learning, because knowledge is like such a good value, and like that's why we also like include like understanding your body. We don't we don't just share the tools, we also share the tools why they work and what helps and what's the background behind it. And I think this is something we can look at, like not claiming ourselves, not knowing everything yet, but like doing the things we know already we can do, and uh and be like deliberate and don't judge by something is very small, like an ankle movement or like a breath flow, but like using those tools before we actually judge if this is working or not. And I think this is a very very important message, and also keep being like want to understand your body and what's going on to be able to like utilize the tools which are working best for you, and so that's basically my message. And Katie's a very good listener, yeah.

Katie Brennan: 45:45

Um I I would echo all of that completely, um, and I'd add to it a couple of things, and one um mentioned already, but can't say it enough, is just you know, kind of accepting where you are and really um making friends with your symptoms, which sounds like such a weird thing to do, but actually kind of changing your perspective that they're helpful messages from your body rather than things to make your life truly miserable was it was a real game changer for me and allowed me to then you know pace more effectively, you know, not not push myself and experience crashes and kind of keep my body in the zone where it wasn't in fight or flight, but could be in rest and repair more often to actually accelerate that recovery process. So I feel like that was a really big factor. Um and again, I think I think Andrea's point about small things being really impactful is you know can't be said enough times. And the right, you know, evidence-based movements, um, you know, as you say, breath work, which you got you got lots of experience with, um, you know, changes you know to you know, toxins in your environment, little things that you can do that are you know easy swaps or that are easy to incorporate in, um, you know, can really stack up and make a big difference and set you on a totally different trajectory and give you more capacity to then be able to do bigger stuff and you know more changes that are going to accelerate your recovery. Um, and also I think the you know the the thing that was amazing to me was how quickly things turned around once I started doing those things. Um, but the challenge, I think, is creating a little bit of knowing the right things to do and then creating um the space to do it. But um I think so many people we talk to, you know, get in that that loop of feeling I'm like they're too unwell to start and therefore they stay unwell. And I think that the biggest thing, and you know, I was definitely there myself, but I think that the the benefits and the wins are so great that almost you can't afford not to start. Um, and so I would say, you know, just pick something, one you know, one or two things that are really achievable. Don't worry that it's not perfect. Um, and I think that it's really hard as well, that you know, one of the symptoms of long COVID is anxiety, and so that sense of, you know, and I'm not someone who's ever suffered from anxiety, but I felt it very deeply. Um, you know, I doubted my ability to make choices, you know, all of those things, you know, when I was unwell. And again, that's part of the symptom set. So just acknowledging that that's not um not something that needs to um inhibit you necessarily. Um, you know, your body is not sure what's going on and it's trying to protect you. But if you know these things are good, then you can, you know, feel free to go for them and do it in a gentle way.

Jackie Baxter: 49:07

It's finding the right thing at the right time in the right amount, isn't it? And to start with, it's probably very, very gentle, very, very tiny things in very, very tiny amounts, um, whether it's a breathing practice or some form of very gentle movement or whatever that is for you. There's a million things out there that help people. Um, so it's piecing together your puzzle in the right way. Um guys, thank you so much for coming along today. It has been awesome hearing your story. It's been really interesting hearing about how these two worlds intersect and how that actually is totally relevant on many levels. Um, so yeah, thank you so much for being here. This has been awesome.

Katie Brennan: 49:50

Fantastic. Thank you so much for having us. Um, if people want more information um and even maybe to try some of the movements out, we've got um more info. We've got a YouTube channel, but also with some examples um that people can follow. Um, and that's uh and it's Thrive 90 because you know the the data from the NHS was not good if you have this suite of symptoms in terms of longevity and life expectancy. And I didn't want to be in that place and wanted to find a way out of it and to to, as you say, to to age well. Um and Andrea wanted to be skiing when she was 90. And I said that sounds just fine to me. So that's kind of where that comes from and that idea comes from.

Jackie Baxter: 50:35

And I'll get all those links into the show notes so everyone can connect with you there if they would like to.