197 - More Than Mindset: The Crucial Role of Belief in Healing

We explore how belief shapes behaviour, attention, and recovery in Long Covid and ME/CFS, separating grounded acceptance from resignation and linking science to daily choices. Stories, evidence, and small wins show why consistency and self‑compassion matter more than intensity.

• defining belief as evidence‑based stance that drives action
• antibiotics, diabetes, and stroke rehab as clear analogies
• neuroplasticity explained in plain terms
• acceptance for now versus resignation forever
• how negative narratives limit progress
• three layers of proof: rational, social, personal
• noticing micro‑wins via the brain’s filtering
• consistency over intensity in daily practices
• self‑compassion for missed days and resets
• teaser for part two on practical belief‑building

Tune back in next week and we'll see you then!

Links: 

CFS Recovery Stories: https://cfsunravelled.com/me-cfs-recovery-stories-patient-me-cfs-stories-with-a-difference/      

ANS REWIRE Free Lessons:  https://ansrewire.com/info-request/

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back And Today’s Focus
• 3:23 Defining Belief And Why It Matters
• 5:15 From Antibiotics To Neuroplasticity
• 9:05 Science, The Why, And Follow Through
• 13:53 Belief’s Dark Side And Resignation
• 17:07 Acceptance Versus Resignation
• 20:59 Evidence, Models, And Possibility
• 24:52 Building Belief: Three Layers Of Proof
• 29:57 Small Wins, Consistency, And Hope
• 41:54 Self‑Compassion And Keeping Momentum
• 44:09 Part Two Teaser And Closing

Transcript

Jackie Baxter: 0:56

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Long COVID podcast. I'm delighted to be joined again by Dan Neuffer, who has been on the podcast before. So some of you may know him already. Dan is the author of CFS Unraveled. He's created the ANS Rewire program, which has been mentioned by some of my recovery guests. He's also a wonderful person and has lived experience from having recovered from CFS himself. So is extremely qualified to be here. So Dan, thank you so much for being here. It is super excited to have you back. And I'm really interested to get into today's topic.

Dan Neuffer: 1:36

Thank you very much for inviting me back. It's uh always a pleasure to speak with you, Jackie. And uh I love the deeply insightful questions that you ask. And I feel like often they're questions that perhaps people who are still seeking recovery don't necessarily understand or appreciate why they would be important. Um and so it makes it uh it makes it a great conversation. So I'm looking forward to it.

Jackie Baxter: 2:05

Yes, I'm really looking forward to today as well. So much so that I got up at 6.30 this morning to do it. Um so guys, this one's for you. Um It was still dark. It was still dark. So today's conversation is going to be around beliefs or belief, and we're gonna get into kind of what this actually means in just a moment, uh, because this is something that comes up a lot. Um, but I think we possibly don't always understand what it means or why it's relevant, or even if we do understand those things, how to actually go about it. Um, so let's start off. Dan, what is belief?

Dan Neuffer: 2:47

So belief is, I mean, people have different definitions. Uh, from my point of view, belief is the knowledge that something is true. So it is the the uh proposition that we go, this is uh happens to be a true thing. And if if if that uh gels with us, then we can call it uh a belief. And and I think it is uh an absolute uh essential uh part of recovery from chronic illnesses that involve either dysfunction and or neuroplasticity. Um and illness like postvial fatigue syndrome uh or often long co COVID as it's referred to, um they fall in both categories dysfunction and uh an illness that involves neuroplasticity. So that makes belief doubly important.

Jackie Baxter: 3:52

Right. So you say that dysfunction and neuroplasticity, other other illnesses maybe that have structural stuff for want of a better word, going on. Would you say belief is important there as well?

Dan Neuffer: 4:11

Absolutely, absolutely, and so this is a good plot points place to start because like people are like, I'm sick, why are we thinking about belief? Is this some kind of voodoo, right? But let's uh give you a very simple example. Um, let's say uh you have, let's give the easiest. Let's say you have an infection and really nasty infection in a hospital, and the doctor says we have to give you antibiotics, and you go, I don't believe the antibiotics can help me. Then what will happen is they'll give you the antibiotics, you won't take the antibiotics, and you won't benefit from them because antibiotics don't work, they don't work in a drawer, in a pillbox, in the pharmacy, they only work when you swallow them or if you get injected, they only work when they're in your body, and the diff and the thing that causes them to be in your body is your belief that taking them will be helpful. If you look at an illness with dysfunction, you might think of diabetes. Okay, if we look at type 2 diabetes, well, that's an illness that people can recover from, it's not really complicated, but in order for them to do that, they need to moderate their lifestyle and their diet. And if they don't believe if they don't think it's true that a change in lifestyle and diet will cause their diabetes to go away, I'm talking type 2, of course, um, then they won't do those things. Right? And it's the same with uh something that involves neuroplasticity. Let's say, as an example, we pick somebody who's had a stroke. Okay. Uh if your great-grandfather, when he had a stroke, if someone had come up to them and say, Oh, okay, you can't walk now, but we're gonna pretend you can walk, just think you can move your leg, and and uh then sees them shuffling their leg forward, he would have gone, what kind of rubbish is this? You think I'm stupid? The doctor told me my brain is damaged, I can't fix it, and obviously I'm not moving my leg, that's you moving my leg. You know, like you're taking me for a ride, this is crazy talk, right? But now, you know, we've learned about neuroplasticity, we've learned that this can happen in the adult brain, um, thanks to you know wonderful researchers like Dr. Mircenich, who really pioneered neuroplasticity, and with the invention which led to the invention of the cochlea implant, right? And yeah, so now people know you can recover uh from stroke to various degrees in various people, and they have therapists that literally go to them and you know do these weird things that without context would seem ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Um, but with context and education and the patient's belief that this can help, they go through the pain and difficulty and discipline, and they show up every day, they do the work, they learn to walk. So that's why I think belief really matters because it shapes our behavior.

Jackie Baxter: 7:39

So, in order to commit to doing something, whether it's taking a pill or doing a breathing exercise or you know, moving your leg, um, you know, whatever those actions are, we're only gonna do them if we have some sort of belief in the fact that they are actually going to have an impact.

Dan Neuffer: 8:02

Yeah, look, look, that's just sound familiar, right? You get told a story, this this supplement or this whatever will work. And you're kind of like, oh, I'm not sure. Right. So you do it let's say half-heartedly, but uh maybe in the beginning you do it properly. But for how long? Two days, three days, four days, one week, maybe two weeks? Wow, you're doing amazing. Two weeks, no changes, nothing's happening. Why am I doing this? This is not working, right? See, we we as human beings are really wired for short-term feedback. And you do something, like no nobody uh who has diabetes, like you know, has a day of eating you know proteins, salad, and a small amount of carbohydrates that are complex and is then cured of their disease. That doesn't work. So so the point is you have to keep doing it, and and I think most of us kind of go, uh there's not enough evidence. You know, everything's hard when you're sick. Doing all whatever it is, it's it's really hard to find the motivation. Why am I trading off my little bit of pleasure of doing something else with the limited energy that I have? Why should I be doing breathing exercises? Yeah, I've been breathing all my life, what's the point, right? If we don't understand what the why and the science behind it, then I think we are less likely to follow through. And that's the key word here is is follow through. So this isn't about pretending or positive uh thinking or anything like that. It's it's just about choosing a stance that's going to support change in your life and in your well-being.

Jackie Baxter: 10:45

And I I love what you were just saying about understanding, because this was key for me. Like if someone had said, do this thing, my first question would have been, why? Like I was the why child. Why, why, why, why, why? And I still am. I still am the why child. And like I need to understand on some level why would I do these things? You know, so for me, understanding a little bit above the kind of science behind breathing exercises, for example. Um, oh, okay, it does that, it influences this, it influences that, that's going to help that. You know, that was when I was then able to go, okay, yeah, that makes a bit of sense. Now I can commit to doing this. Um, whereas, you know, if it if someone had just said do this breathing exercise, I would probably have, like you said, been like, well, that sounds a bit woo-woo. Um, you know, I don't think that's really going to make any difference. I've been, as you say, breathing all my life. Um, you know, I don't see how the way I breathe is going to have any impact on anything. Um, but that little bit of understanding did give me the kind of like, okay, let's give it a try then. That that makes some logical sense to me. Um, so I think that that really was helpful. And, you know, I think we can then go too far. Um, and again, I am the penitentiate of going too far. Um, you know, when we then, you know, try to understand too much, or is actually, you know, stop understanding and get experiencing. So I think there is there is probably also a a balance to be struck there. But for me, certainly having some understanding was crucial.

Dan Neuffer: 12:18

Well, belief is formed in different ways, and there are limitations to a one-faceted approach like uh science and understanding. So, yeah, and I'm sure we'll get to that as we sort of go through today. But yeah, I think I totally agree with you. You're you're yeah, I totally agree with you. Yeah.

Jackie Baxter: 12:38

So you mentioned that you know, in order to do something consistently and commit to it and to stick to it for more than two weeks, um, you know, that that belief is really important. Um does this also work against us? So if we say, okay, well, you know, I can't get better, there is no cure. Um, so what's the point? Like that that's kind of like the flip side of that, isn't it? That's the opposite belief or an unbelief.

Dan Neuffer: 13:13

Yeah, um absolutely. Um belief can cut both ways, and I think this is particularly an issue with an illness like long COVID. Where quality factual, science-based information has not necessarily been the primary experience from when it started. In fact the thing is, I mean give you just an example why negative beliefs are unhelpful. I if you truly think this is as good as it can get with your recovery, if that's your belief, that's going to lead to resignation. I mean, if this is as good as it gets, why would you just Because there's a bit of a mental anguish in chasing solutions and working towards your recovery. I mean it isn't just about the physical uh you know efforts, but it's it's this mental roller coaster, and it's easier to just go, okay, this is good enough, this is where I'm gonna be. Now I won't do anything. But that kind of resignation is gonna affect all your little daily choices, it's gonna stop you making progress. And I think um, I think people can get really overwhelmed with like negative stories or negative narratives. There's a lot of really fearful stuff, a lot of fear-mongering since uh you know, in this last five years in particular. And I mean, you know, uh you can make a wonderful case for something that may or may not be true, you know, if you listen to it enough, it it sounds true, you know, it's compelling, and obviously your own experience kind of backs it up because you're still sick, and so it's so easy to fall into that that that trap. Um so yeah, I think a belief can be a driver of recovery or it can be a quiet limiter that can keep us stuck.

Jackie Baxter: 15:28

And you mentioned resignation there, and I'm curious about what you think the difference between resignation and acceptance is, because the word acceptance, I mean, I hated the word acceptance to start with. You know, someone said, Oh, you need to find acceptance with your condition. Um, and I said, No, I will never accept that this is my life forever. Like I will never ever accept that. And that's what I thought that they meant. And, you know, that that that may have been what some people meant, but you know, that what I kind of came to the conclusion eventually for me was that it was acceptance of the moment. Um, so I could finally stop fighting um and accept where I was and then work from there. Um, so I'm curious as to how you, because you know, that resignation sounds like a negative thing, whereas acceptance, I would say, in that context is is a good thing.

Dan Neuffer: 16:21

I think you sum it up perfectly, Jackie. I mean, this is exactly how I teach it to people. And and the issue is, and now it goes as far as to say is that the person who told you to accept it probably was talking about resignation, not acceptance, the way you think, you and I think about it. So um, yeah. Um many people, you know, when I speak to them, the the one thing that really has helped them in their recovery is suddenly going, often being worse, having this low point, and suddenly going, that's it, I'm done with it, I'm not gonna deal with this, I can't accept this anymore. Right, and at the same point, other people will say, Okay, that's it. I can I finally get it, I'm really sick, I'm going to change my life and just accept my limitations for now. Right? But it's those little nuances, you know, accept it for now. Right? I can't live like this, so I'm gonna do something about it. That's very different than oh, I uh I accept that I'm ill and I'll be ill forever. So acceptance it needs to be a bit qualified. What do you mean by acceptance? And and uh you pointed that out straight away, and and I think that is uh absolutely uh essential, yeah.

Jackie Baxter: 17:43

So it's it's almost like two sides of a similar thing, isn't it? Um and like I think as you say that that for now qualifier is something that I heard someone else say, and I kind of really took that on, you know. So every time I was like, I can't do this, I can't do that. Um, it was always okay, I can't do this for now, because it's that hope for the future, isn't it? That that you know we we have to have because it's such a dark place when you don't have that.

Dan Neuffer: 18:12

You know, it's uh it's complicated. Let me be devil's advocate for a moment, right? So easy just to ride your own beliefs and viewpoints. And uh you and I are obviously on the same page here, but from a psychologist's point of view, right? If you have an illness that is incurable, which is basically all illnesses, but let's talk about this group of illnesses CFS, fibro, pots, um, post viral fatigue syndrome, long COVID, call it what you like. Um and then so if the model is the medical model she can't recover from this illness, and then you chasing all these recoveries and treatments and ideas causes all this stress and anguish because you keep getting disappointed. So, from that point of view, it would be much more logical and healthy from a psychological point of view just to accept this faith. Okay, I am gonna be sick and there's nothing I can do about it. I accept this and I'll just learn to live with it. And that's what they try and teach. And it's with good reason because this is really something that works for most people with many conditions. Yeah, um, okay, you lose both your legs, your life's gonna be different. Right? Now, of course, people who don't accept this and somehow find a way to live a life that they shouldn't be able to with both their legs gone or legs and arms gone and all this kind of thing. But to some extent, no matter what they do, and no matter how fantastic, superhero-like they are, their life's gonna be impacted, and there has to be some level of acceptance. Um so yeah, there's a real argument to be made to this, but of course, this is all on a premise, it's all on a belief that this illness is not something you can recover from. And if that is your belief, then straight acceptance uh is the best path forward. But of course, uh a belief if you you ask me what's belief, and I said it has to do with what you believe to be true, what you hold true. I'd I'd like to go further to say that I'd like I personally form my beliefs based on evidence, on science. So therefore, if we see evidence that people can recover, having a belief that you can't is wrong. It's the wrong belief. It's like I can believe that the sun doesn't come up. That can be my belief, yes? But the sun still comes up. I can believe I can breathe underwater. And this is sort of the world we live in these days, isn't it? There's a lot of beliefs these days that people like to hold that are contrary to the fact and evidence of what we know scientifically to be a fact. Um So that's a bit of a society challenge, I would say.

Jackie Baxter: 21:28

And I suppose it's I don't know if the word easy is the right word, but like we can find evidence to back up what we believe. You know, it's it's like that kind of, you know, when you go looking for something, you can usually find it, you know, and you can believe that the sun doesn't rise. And actually, you know, you can believe that for quite a few hours before it will come up. Um, you know, and and if you live in Scotland and it's cloudy, actually you can sort of still believe that it hasn't because, well, you can't see it. Um, you know, to use a really silly example. Um, you know, so if we think about like long COVID or MECFS, you think, well, you know, chronic fatigue has been around for decades. And, you know, there's all these people that haven't recovered, therefore I'm gonna be just like them. And, you know, maybe one person has recovered. Oh, well, you know, I can maybe explain that away, you know, because there's all these people that haven't.

Dan Neuffer: 22:18

They didn't have it.

Jackie Baxter: 22:19

Yeah, exactly. Maybe, maybe they didn't have the real one.

Dan Neuffer: 22:21

They didn't really have the illness.

Jackie Baxter: 22:23

Um, or they weren't as ill as I was.

Dan Neuffer: 22:25

Exactly, exactly. And so that was really the whole drive for me to write CFS Unraveled. People always think that CFS Unraveled was written to so that people know how they can recover. I had to put some of that in because it seemed inappropriate not to, but but even the stuff that I put in about how to recover wasn't really that wasn't my primary motivation. My primary motivation was to deepen people's belief into the explanation for the root cause of this illness. Yes, because that was really what all of the book is about. It's having because when you have the full context of the physiological, the biochemical processes in your brain, the neurology, all of it, that suddenly explains why one person recovers and the other one doesn't. Why one person gets ill from this and the other person gets ill from something different, why one person recovers with one action, the same action doesn't work for somebody else. Why they have different symptoms. That's not true, it's just not a fact that this is a distinct illness, and it's not just uh you know default diagnosis when we don't know what's wrong. Um, it has clear patterns that lead to the onset, that leads to the symptoms and recovery. And because it's a little bit complicated, because it's a central nervous system illness, right, which has so many secondary dysfunctions, there's so many biological, biochemical problems in the body that people experience, the whole thing gets so muddled, yeah. And so I wanted to I wrote the book so that people could understand all of this because if you can answer all the questions, then your belief is going to be strong. But if you can sort of go, oh yeah, that's good, but blah blah blah blah blah, yeah. And by the way, if people have a but, I'd be happy to come back on an episode that can list all their buts, why this isn't the case, and why they think it's something else, and we can have that discussion because you know, occasionally I will I will actually do that with people I have in the program. Most people are already uh um their beliefs are deeply aligned, especially by the time they start to get results. You know, then you've got so much proof. But it when I see people having some doubts or concerns, I always address it. So I I encourage anyone listening to just bombard you with all their reasons why ANS dysfunction is not central. Because when you get these questions answered and resolved, you can it gives you confidence to move forward.

Jackie Baxter: 25:27

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, send us your butts.

Dan Neuffer: 25:29

Um yeah. Uh oh, you better get some kind of a filter on your email.

Jackie Baxter: 25:36

I know, I just just thinking, yeah, oops. Um, but you know, I I I think you're right. You know, I I said already I'm I'm the why person, you know, I'm the one that will always have more questions. The more you understand, you know, the more questions, as you say, that get answered, it makes more and more sense. And then, you know, that that helps to strengthen that belief, I suppose, doesn't it? You know, because they they can feel very fragile, I think. And particularly in an illness such as long COVID, MECFS, where things can feel very uncertain, things, you know, they they are so fluctuating, you know, the recovery trajectory is nonlinear, um, it's all over the place. It looks a bit like Mr. Tickle um with his arms everywhere, doesn't it? And um, you know, it's so easy for those beliefs, even if we've built them up to some extent, for them to kind of come crumbling down at, you know, it takes very little to bring them down sometimes. Um, so I think that is is really, really important. Um, but we've kind of jumped over a little bit because we're assuming that people have beliefs. Um let's let's go back to people who maybe don't have belief. And like how can we start to develop that? And you know, yeah, people who feel like they don't have it um and it just feels impossible. Like, how can I ever believe something that I sort of, you know, maybe even they're like, I feel like I'd like to believe it, but I don't, um, kind of, you know, thing.

Dan Neuffer: 27:10

Yeah, look, um, if I may just sort of bring to the front just another aspect of this um of why it's so important. Before we talk about forming the beliefs, it's like what okay, we talk about the action, but you know, there's actually more to it than just actions. Um, there's uh other reasons why belief is important, and and I think the chief one here is because belief also changes what we notice. So some people call this like the law of attraction, which sounds like it's some sort of magic thing, right?

Jackie Baxter: 27:47

Sounds like we're starting a dating platform, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dan Neuffer: 27:51

That's right, exactly. Where people send you pictures of their butt. Um, but it's um it's the reticular activating system that's really the brain's internal filter. So from a neurological point of view, this isn't some sort of uh weird random thing or some you know woo-woo kind of thing. Um the amount of information that comes into your brain uh is just staggering. Um if you the people who are listening to this podcast right now are ignoring 90% of what's going on around them, uh, which is can be a bit of a problem if you're driving. So um, because you you have a limited amount of attention, right? There's all kinds of stuff going on in your vision that you're hearing in your body, and what you're feeling. Um and we tend to filter it out and hone in our attention to just a few things. And what happens is that when we have a belief, you asked earlier about uh you know about how beliefs are are formed and and supporting the beliefs. Well, one of the things people tend to do is they tend to have a bias to support the belief. Um and so if your belief is, you know, that I don't know, all red cars get broken easily, then every time you hear of a red car that's broken, you say, see I told you. But if you don't think that, you wouldn't even notice that there's a red car that got broken. And and uh in fact if you think that uh uh red cars are fantastic and blue cars are the ones that get broken, you might even kind of just not notice it at all. You just skip over it. Um so this is why I think belief is uh is important. Uh it it's and there's also you know, there's also a deeper existential reason, which is what you were talking about. Um because living with hope does give you but better quality of life. Yeah if you do it the right way. It it can be a little bit of a desperation which has that awful roller coaster of hope and disappointment. But if you can find hope that you can work towards where you're getting small wins and evidence, then I think we also transform your experience of life. Yeah. So then belief is about action, belief is about noticing things differently, and belief is suddenly also about a change in mindset or mental health. And that's really part of the reasons why I think it's so important.

Jackie Baxter: 31:13

Yeah, and we talk about mindset, don't we? And it sounds oh it can often be taken as think yourself better. Yeah. Um, but that's not true, you know. By thinking positively, it's not gonna cure you, but it is also helping to pave the way for the actions and the behaviors and the changes and the consistency that that will, I suppose.

Dan Neuffer: 31:38

And I I wonder if your listeners noticed what I did here. You start to ask me, well, so how do we develop positive beliefs? And I stopped and I backtracked. And the reason is because if you don't have the belief that beliefs are important, then you're not going to follow through with the actions to change your belief. So I felt we needed a More evidence of why belief is so important. And it's kind of like it's like the perfect story, isn't it? Uh it really sort of explains it all.

Jackie Baxter: 32:13

Yeah, so it's it's about that, you know, that understanding is important, but then starting to look for for evidence um to back that up. And you know, and and like you know, the example of recovery stories, for example, you know, you have this belief because it's what you've experienced, it's what you've seen in other people, it might be what you've been told by medical professionals. Um, you know, oh, you know, long COVID, CFS, you know, there isn't a cure, you're not gonna get better, you're just gonna have to learn to live with it, you're gonna have to, you know, manage your symptoms, you know, and so many people are told that, and so many people maybe come to that conclusion on their own. Um, but then we start to see other people recovering. I mean, the first person I ever spoke to who'd recovered totally changed my outlook because I had never met anyone who had, you know, it was like everyone was sick, I was sick, everything was dreadful. And then someone said, I'm fully recovered. And I was like, What? You know, I need to speak to you. Tell me your story. What did you do? Um, but it's again, you know, that one piece of evidence, you know, maybe it wasn't enough to fully make me believe that everything was going to be fine, but it certainly made me go, huh.

Dan Neuffer: 33:26

Well, it's a choice, isn't it? I just want to point out you did that, but you made a choice, Jackie. You could have chosen to say, Oh, that person didn't actually have it. Or that you could have chosen to say, well, that person is lucky or an anomaly. Yeah, it's not really possible. Or you could have said, you know, all kinds of things. But you chose to lean towards a possibility rather than a limitation. Yeah. So that's a choice. So this is really, really important. Yeah. I spoke to someone that I'm quite close to, and you know, he he was uh abandoned as a young adult, and he ended up sort of not being quite homeless, but yeah, you know, uh no connection uh at all, didn't know anybody, and and he started to connect with uh gangs, you know, gang members. And those gang members showed him some kindness, they showed him uh connection, uh a family, um and a life of crime. It's not so good. And he made the choice, which you think about it, in that position when you're so vulnerable and you got nothing. Yeah, he made the choice to he says I always have a choice, and it's my choice not to go down that road. So he went and enlisted in the army instead and found a different family. Yeah, and so yeah, it's it starts with the choice, but then you're right, it's evidence, but I think there's there's different layers. There's there's probably three layers of evidence, and and I think the first one is that rational layer. Um, like what you're saying, um I understand the science of recovery and neuroplasticity, and you know, this is logical explanation, like the book, See Fus Unraveled, right? You can go through all this and oh, now I understand why I have fatigue, and now I understand why my thyroid hormone is out of whack, and blah blah blah, and why I'm thirsty all the time, why I pee like a racehorse, you know, like it goes on and on. All the symptoms, the more of your symptoms get ticked off, the more you suddenly go, oh, okay, this makes sense, right? So that's the rational confidence. But then I think there is that social proof like you experienced, right? And that it's difficult when you just hear one story, but what if you hear two? What about three? What about 300? 3,000. You know, I I started these recovery services, they didn't exist when I started to do these like over 10 years ago. No, when you know, when when I first went out and I went to some of these forums and everyone's you know was saying, Oh, what what you can't recover? What are you a scam artist? I'm like, I'm not selling anything. How can I be a scam artist? I wasn't selling anything. Do you know what I mean? Uh I was just telling you my story and and my understandings. But yeah, then we started these things, these these stories, which you know you've been part of sharing your story, and and so I think this is an important second level, right? Recognize there's hundreds and hundreds and thousands of stories, and then the third level, which is to me always essential, whenever I speak to someone in in the A and S V Y program and we have a consult. My first question is, How are things going? Like, what is the progress? And they're often like, Oh, the program is fantastic, I love the program, blah blah blah. They go, hang on, hang on, hang on a sec. Yeah, but have you actually made any progress? And sometimes they go, Oh no, I haven't got any progress, but that's really great, and you know, they're I feel so validated. I'm like, okay, well, that's nice, but we need actual physical recovery progress. And the reason why I'm a bit of a hard ass about it is because that to me is the most important evidence, right? We need that personal evidence that it's working and that we are making recovery progress. And if we don't experience that, we have to change our approach, right? Because once we get that, we suddenly go, you remember what it was like, right? That feeling of suddenly maybe this could really happen. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when was that moment for you when you first had enough progress? What did what what do you remember what it was that you did or how you felt that you suddenly go, I might really start to get better? Do you can you remember that moment?

Jackie Baxter: 38:14

It's like your world expands. You know, it's like when when you become unwell, your world shrinks, you know, very dramatically, very, very quickly. And um it is when you find that. I mean, for me, it was finding the first thing. You know, I'd been doing all sorts of wrong things, or not things at all, or pushing through, and things had not been going well, they'd been getting worse, or certainly not any better. And then I found the first thing. And that for me was like, okay, this is the first thing that I've found that made things better. It didn't make everything loads better, but it made things a little bit better. And if they can get a little bit better, then I can be more intentional and they can get more better. You know, it was it was kind of that possibility.

Dan Neuffer: 39:01

Yeah, it was a possibility, but you know, it's the choice you made along with it. Yes, you chose to say, okay, if I do that a little bit and it got a little bit better, I can choose to do more of that and have intention. Yeah, so this is uh these are things all aligned, and this is why people talk about it as mindset, yeah. And you aced it, you know, from the get-go, right? Yeah. Uh you're you're that's great, you know. I I I don't think I did as anywhere near as good a job as well.

Jackie Baxter: 39:37

I made a right mess of it as well, believe me.

Dan Neuffer: 39:39

Um my recovery, you know. Because I I didn't know that uh anyone could recover. Yeah. It was only for me, it was the theory that led my experience. I didn't know that anyone had recovered, which is why I was so intent on sharing the recovery stories.

Jackie Baxter: 39:58

Which is why it's so important to share them, you know, and why why you and I are both so passionate about sharing recovery stories, and you know, other people out there are are doing the same. Um, because it is it's that burn of proof, but it's also the sheer number, the different stories, you know, you can relate more to someone's story than than another person's. And and again, that makes it more relevant to you, and I suppose helps with with that proof, doesn't it? Um so so like you were saying, you know, it's it's having that bit of understanding and some evidence from other people, but then you've got to build your own evidence, haven't you? You know, um, starting to find those things and starting to put them into practice. And, you know, even if it's like a fraction of a percent, you know, those little steps that you do things. I mean, one of one of my themes is always consistency. You know, you it's not a one and done, you know, you don't do a breathing exercise and then that's it. Okay, I've done my breathing. You know, it's that you've got to do that consistent breath practice every day, maybe multiple times a day. And it's not the amount, it's the consistency.

Dan Neuffer: 41:04

Yes, yes. In fact, sometimes less is more. Um but consistency is uh is really uh everything. And just I just want everyone to know who's listening. We know you're not gonna get it right. We we know you're not gonna be consistent. You don't have to worry that you think you can't do it, or when you're not consistent, that you know you you you messed up. That's normal. We all well, not all. I mean, I've met some you know remarkable people who've gone to my program and had sort of uh let's say unlikely results, but but for the human beings amongst us, right? The the normal human beings like you and me, we we all mess up. We all have periods where we lose our consistency, but the key is just to get back on the horse.

Jackie Baxter: 41:58

Yeah.

Dan Neuffer: 41:58

And there's things we can do that help us with all of this, yeah.

Jackie Baxter: 42:04

And it's it's that idea of um you know missing a day is okay. Usually get out of jail free card. Don't let that missing a day become the start of a new pattern. Um, so you know, let yourself off the hook. We're terrible at this, aren't we? We're very good at blaming ourselves and you know being really harsh to ourselves, but actually let yourself off the hook. You missed your breathing practice for a day. It's okay. You know, just do it tomorrow or do it before you go to bed. Um, you know, as you say, get get back on that horse. Um yeah.

Dan Neuffer: 42:41

Self-compassion is so important.

Jackie Baxter: 42:44

Yeah, exactly. Self-compassion, the name of the game. Okay, so we're gonna stop here for now because that's quite a nice place to leave it. And Dan and I will be back next week with the second part of this discussion where we talk more practically about how to build those beliefs and to maintain those beliefs and how to rebuild beliefs when they feel like they're crumbling. So, Dan, thank you. It's been awesome. You tune back in next week and we'll see you then.