194 Navigating the Unknown: Ivor Clark’s Long Covid Recovery Story

We trace Ivor Clark’s Long Covid recovery from a 2023 infection and UTI to a careful return to work, highlighting the routines and supports that made progress possible. Pacing, breathwork, oxygen therapy, and a rare GP who listened shaped a steady path back to confidence.

• athletic past, late-pandemic infection, UTI and antibiotics complicating onset
• post-exertional malaise, normal test results, delayed Long Covid recognition
• limits of early medical support, value of an advocate and listening GP
• pacing by heart rate, non-sleep deep rest, reducing stimulants and sensory load
• hyperbaric oxygen therapy via charity, structured protocols and consistent care
• workplace adjustments, graded return, boundaries and restorative breaks
• targeted tools later: diet cleanup, selective supplements, peptides 
• mindset shift from ill to deconditioned, micro-strength and balance rebuilds
• fewer crashes, rebuilding trust, gradual confidence in everyday capacity

Connect with Ivor: https://www.facebook.com/ProgressiveWellbeing

Ivor's book "In it for the long haul": https://amzn.eu/d/0zfjQ6n

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Chapters

• 1:51 Welcome And Ivor’s Background
• 4:15 The 2023 Infection And UTI Complication
• 7:05 Early Deterioration And Unclear Diagnosis
• 9:58 Naming Long COVID And Costly Overdoing
• 13:34 Medical Support And Finding An Advocate
• 17:03 Impact On Family, Work, And Finances
• 20:02 What Finally Helped: Oxygen And Pacing
• 23:47 Making Pacing Practical Day To Day
• 26:58 Returning To Work With Boundaries
• 31:07 Gradual Recovery And Peptides
• 34:57 Trusting The Body Again
• 38:44 From Ill To Unfit: Rebuilding Capacity
• 42:26 The Advice He’d Give Himself

Transcript

Jackie Baxter: 0:56

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Long Covid podcast. I am delighted to be joined today by Ivor Clark, who is here to share his recovery story. So again, as with all recovery stories, this is one person's experience, but there is so much that we can learn from every single experience. So I'm super excited to hear Ivor's story, uh, what worked, what didn't work, um, all of the beauty details. So welcome. It's so lovely to have you here, and I'm looking forward to hearing your story.

Ivor Clark: 1:29

Thank you, Jackie. Nice to see you and speak to you.

Jackie Baxter: 1:33

It is, it's lovely to connect. So let's start off with what was life like before? So, in that kind of run-up to your illness, what did life look like for you?

Ivor Clark: 1:45

Well, going further back, I think it's worth highlighting that I had played American football at a relatively high level competitively. Um, but I'd played in British finals, I'd played for Great Britain and such like. So I've got quite an athletic background. Um, I had retired a few years before I contracted COVID. Um, I had moved through from the west coast of Scotland through to the east coast to live with my wife. So we originally lived in Portobello, where she's from, and we'd moved to Musselburgh, so it's her and my wife's called Sarah. I shouldn't call her her, should I? It's not very it's not very polite. And then my two stepdaughters, Charlotte and Lucia. So it made sense for me to move through and live with them. And we now live in Musselborough, and we've got Pirate the Dog, and we've got Amber the Cat, and there's also a leopard Gecko that sits in a tank close to me here as well. So I was working full-time, I was also health coaching part-time and just supporting my family, I suppose. And then it was um 2023 that I was impacted by COVID, and I also got a urinary tract infection around about the same, pretty much at the same time, um, which led me to take antibiotics, a couple of courses of antibiotics, which may have given me a false sense of recovery, um, which obviously, as you will be well aware of, then you know, if you do too much, then you can feel pretty bad afterwards. So that was that was early stages and then leading into it.

Jackie Baxter: 3:38

Yeah. So yeah, as you say, that there was there was quite a lot going on there. And actually, your COVID infection that led to long COVID was actually relatively far through the pandemic. Um, you know, you'd you'd survived sort of three years of it before it got you, kind of thing. Um and um interesting as well that you say about the antibiotics, because you know, we do now understand a little bit more about, you know, what they do to our gut, for example, and the importance of the gut in our you know, immune system and our nervous system. And, you know, not that you shouldn't take antibiotics if you need them, um, but also that they they can have this impact. So interesting that that kind of all happened together. And then kaboom. Um so yeah, let's let's talk a little bit about your sort of um your your COVID illness, um, sort of maybe the initial illness and then how that kind of led into long COVID and what your sort of main symptoms there were.

Ivor Clark: 4:41

Yes.

Jackie Baxter: 4:42

You can talk us through that a little bit.

Ivor Clark: 4:44

Of course. Well, as you say, it was it was a few years after the initial pandemic hit us. Sarah and I had both had COVID previously, and we weren't badly impacted, you know, bad cold flu-like symptoms, probably for a week at the very most. As usual, my wife got better before me, so she then thinks it's a bit of man flu and such like. So that time in 2023, the second time that we were impacted, um, it was it just shows how far on. Like we'd got married in 2021, and you know, there were points in that at that stage that you know we didn't know if the wedding was going to go ahead because you know, you know, and then it was all masks and it was all different, you know, um, rules and regulations that they were flinging in. Um, so yeah, it just shows two years, two years down the line that in June 2023, when we were impacted, we we hadn't even realized at first that we had COVID, and then she went out of dog walk, came back in and said, We had COVID a few days ago, and it was suddenly a realization that that's why we weren't well. So, as I say, I had a UTI at the same time, so a couple of courses of antibiotics. Um, and I was after probably maybe six weeks, I suppose, four to six weeks, I was starting to feel better, and I still remember the point. I was through back on the West Coast um spending time with my dad because he's got Parkinson's. So I was giving my mum a break, she was away, um, she was away on holiday, and I was through looking after my dad, finished the second course of antibiotics, thinking I was on the road to recovery, feeling a lot better. Came back through here, decided for some obscure reason that I was rearranged the office at home, and I also went outside and there was a massive rotten plant out in the garden. And I ripped that up and put it, put it in the garden waste, and it filled the whole garden waste bin. And my youngest stepdaughter, who was probably about 10 or 11 at the time, was outside with me during the time she's now 13, so she doesn't spend as much time with me now. She's a teenager, but she was out there watching me thinking, you've definitely got better. And then for the next few weeks, my condition gradually deteriorated. You know, I could I was moving a lot slower, I just wasn't, you know, I was just getting tired so quickly. I was having it when I was going out for a dog walk, I was coming back in and having to lie down. Um, but I was trying to push through, like I think you've said before, you you don't fully understand the condition and how it, you know, at that point it wasn't clear that I had long COVID. There were different um doctor appointments, there was getting blood tests which were um coming back as showing as being normal, um, which I definitely didn't feel normal, and there was no clarity about what the situation was. And then one of the doctors said, You've got long COVID, but we can't call it that until you've been at the 12-week stage. So I spent another few weeks where we'll try to go out to it, would have been August 2023, so it was the Edinburgh Festivals happening, so with two or three shows we were going to, and we're still going out, so I just drove and parked close by and walked to them. But I suppose everything I do I did at that stage was having a detrimental ongoing impact as to how I was feeling. And then towards the end of August, I was best man at my friend's wedding. And at that stage, I was pretty bad. Um, I had we'd driven through, it was back through on the west coast of Scotland, driven back through the night before. We'd I'd done too much the night before. Um, you know, try to find somewhere to eat and such like so the next hadn't got a good sleep. Next day, I was just I had to get a help, putting my kilt on. The guy who was getting married had to help me. I was popping paracetamol to get me through the day. I was just sitting down as much as I could. And then from the start of September, I was off work for six months. Um, and that was when the condition really, really hit. And initially the the plan was just to do absolutely nothing. And I tried to do that for a couple of weeks and it made zero, zero impact. And then, you know, started looking into so many different things that could potentially help. Um, but at that stage, early doors, I I really didn't know what I was dealing with at all.

Jackie Baxter: 9:28

Yeah, and you know, it it's a really scary thing, isn't it, when you go from somebody who is just just normal. You know, you don't you don't think about it, do you? You just you're just you, you're just who you are, you're doing what you do, and you're living your life. And then suddenly, suddenly you're not, and you know, even like standing up, which is something we would have just taken for granted without a second thought, is something that you actually can't do and you have to go and sit down and and it's um it is a very, very scary thing to happen, um, particularly because you know, doctors are often not particularly helpful, um, you know, that they don't really know what to do. Um what I'm interested in is um, you know, when I became ill in March 2020, there was very little, you know, long COVID didn't actually even exist yet at that point. Long COVID kind of grew up with me, um, you know, as I sort of got um my my sort of experience moved into long COVID as it sort of started to be called that. Um obviously by 2023, when you got ill, long COVID had existed for several years. Um, but what was the kind of support like around it? Um, you know, your doctor obviously diagnosed you with it, um, but was there any kind of like, you have long COVID, here are some things that might help you? Or was it, you have long COVID, don't really know what to do. Um, you know, and you sort of start Googling, uh, which is often not helpful. Um, what what was that kind of like for you?

Ivor Clark: 11:46

The support from the medical community wasn't great. Um, I did end up finding a GP who was amazing, that she was putting me forward for um more blood tests. She put me forward for chest x-ray and ECG and such like. Um, and then she also put me forward for long COVID support through Chest Heart and Stroke Scotland. Um, they had advice line that was available, and funnily enough, I had been given their details and they'd had email exchanges with them and they'd sent me information about pacing, which at that stage I didn't have any understanding about, and you know it was a foreign word to me. Um, but further down the line, once I'd it had shown the chest x-ray and the ECG that everything, as per the blood tests, that everything was an inverted commas normal, then they could then look at what the next stages would be. And she got actually I remember her phoning me a couple of times because I'd gone in, she said she didn't know anything about long COVID, she was going to look into it. I thought I'd been forgotten about, and I think it was a Friday night at half past six in the in the evening. She she gave me a call and she said, I'm so sorry. Uh I meant to get in touch with you earlier in the week, and I think it was the previous week I'd been in to see her. She says, I'm so sorry, I've looked into it, but this is what I could do, you know. And she she advised me about we have to go down this route and tick certain things off, and then I can put you forward for for support. And it wasn't until February the following year, 2024, that the advice line, Chest Heart and Stroke Scotland, Long Covid Advice Line, somebody got in touch. Um, and that was amazing having that advocate, having that person who I could see as a coach to talk me through. Um, but yeah, having support is so important because I can understand why it impacts people from a mental health standpoint, you know. Um I'm relatively positive and I did a lot of journaling during the time period, but um I can't remember, I think it was potentially um the employee assistance program through my work. I'd spoken to them on a few occasions as well. And as somebody said, you know, if you're having a bad day, then that's okay. If you're in a rubbish mood, just admit it to yourself. So you know, there was a few times when I had a little tear in my eye, a little cry, and that was definitely the case when Kat from the advice line first called me because I could just it just felt like first this is somebody that could understand what I was going through, and they'd supported so many other people. So it it was a relief that I could have somebody who was an advocate that could could be there to guide me. Um, but yeah, it it took a while to get to that stage.

Jackie Baxter: 14:51

Yeah, and you're so right about that, the the power of support and being heard and listened to. Um, and it sounds like you know, you your doctor actually did then go and do some research and find things that were helpful to you. Um, but even in the first instance when she didn't know what she was doing, she listened to you and you know, took on board what you were saying and you know, and and you know, that there is so much power in that. And of course, then having you know other people around you as well. Um, and you know, I think it it's it's amazing for you. And it maybe took some of the burden off your family as well, because you know, we we forget, I think, when we're when we're so in it, we're so wrapped up in how awful our own experience is, um, because it is, and I don't think there's any blame there. Um, but I certainly didn't really appreciate how difficult things were for my partner while I was ill, you know, and he was basically looking after me and doing everything and you know, also having to deal with the kind of mental burden of of all of that himself. Um, so uh yeah, having other people around you as well, I think you know, it's it's important so you're not then relying so heavily on someone else. Um, and it gives them a little bit of space, hopefully, as well. I don't know if that was what you experienced.

Ivor Clark: 16:10

Definitely. And I can understand how you feel, you know, you've discussed Malchi there. And I forget the same with Sarah that she had to pick up everything I was unable to do, whether it'd be just as simple as picking up doing extra dog walks or you know, tidying up after myself, but also the concern that she had that if and when and would I ever get better? You know, how long would this last? And then there was obviously the financial concern she had as well, because yeah, I was off work, but I was in a a privileged position that I could I had six months that I could utilize that I was paid at full uh full pay. But when that clock started ticking and I got to three months, and then it's quite clear I wasn't getting any better, and it was four or five months, and I said we we initially had the conversation don't worry about it if you're not well enough to go back to work. But it became quite evident that we needed that money and I had to go back to work. So, and another support was my manager within within that workplace where I was at that point, you know. Um, but he was even though I wasn't ready to go back to work after six months, that he really made sure I was supported. As he said that HR are crap, but I'm here for you, and I will support you even if they don't, even if this is not the right thing for me to do. And obviously, he had to make sure that I was, you know, I'm I'm I was a manager, so I was meant to be looking after other people, so I had to build back up to that. Um, you know, make sure I scheduled in lots of rest breaks and such like, but going back to work was it was the right thing to do, um, because it it got me back out there from a social aspect, I suppose, as well. Um, but I had to do it from a financial aspect and and you know, take the burden on in that level of concern away from Sarah. So, you know, it's difficult she's somebody else that's having to look after you and pick everything else up and look after the family as a whole, and and they don't know if you're gonna get better, you know, the person they love.

Jackie Baxter: 18:19

So yeah, yeah, exactly. It can't be an easy thing watching someone that you care about go through something like that. And you know, it it's it's not exactly sunshine and roses going through it yourself either. But um, yeah, I think you know, we we we do forget, I think, um, to to care for the carers, you know. Um, so um let's talk a little bit, you know. You said that you'd taken those six months and that you know, you you've had the the understanding GP, um, you got onto the chest heart and stroke Scotland who were helpful. Um, what was there anything else that you kind of did in that period, you know, to sort of be like sort of desperately trying to find something that would would help you to feel better?

Ivor Clark: 19:05

Yes. The first thing that I did was um start oxygen therapy, which is not available through the NHS. Um, but there's an amazing charity called Compass that have a facility in Edinburgh, and they've got a hyperbaric chamber, and I wasn't I had no awareness of them at all. I posted on LinkedIn that I wasn't well, and there was a lady that I used to work with, and I got in touch with me, messaged me privately, and she used to work for Compass, and she made me aware of the facility there, and they do they look after and support a lot of people with um neurological conditions and chronic fatigue, ME, fibromyalgia. But over the last few years they've seen a real sharp increase in the number of long COVID um people that have gone along. So the initial protocol was I think it was 20 sessions within, I think it was within five weeks. So, and then after that, I dropped it down to doing one or two sessions a week for another month or so. Um, but I believe that initial protocol in that period, I think I did 28 sessions within you know three or three months or such like, I believe that was a real catalyst for you know turning things around and starting to feel like I was I was moving in the right direction. Um I had to learn about breath work, um, I had to learn about pacing. And no matter what I did, and if I was to give advice to anybody else or looking back and giving myself advice, pacing would be fundamental for anything that I did. You know, I was gifted a Fitbit for my birthday in September 2023, and I put on there the heart rate monitor so I could view what my heart rate was, and I saw somewhere that you should keep your aim to keep your heart rate under 55% of the max heart rate. So for me, that was 95 beats per minute. Um, so people can work out my age if they try and do the math from that. Um, but it's like 220 minus minus your age, and then 55% of that max. Um, and if you can keep that level or try and maintain that level, then you can minimize the number of crashes you have. And the theory which I read or saw on YouTube was that if you have a crash, then you're reactivating the virus. And I was like, well, I want to stop reactivating the virus. So if I can do that and try and minimize the number of crashes, as difficult as this is, try to keep my heart rate under 95, which was never possible. Um, but I did my utmost to do that, and I believe that was a big factor, as I say. So pacing and just being aware of how much I did um breath work, these are things that I started, try and get my head round. Um, but I think somebody said pacing is uh is an art, not a science, so it's not a linear path, that's for sure. So yeah, it was the there was a I think I've worked out there's about 50 different supplements or protocols that I tried within the period when I was when I was impacted by lung COVID. But um fundamentally pacing, as I say, breath work, but going back to napy was the first thing I did in Compass, it was just so much support and so much care that the F had within that facility as well. So I've written a book about my um my journey impacted by lung COVID for that 15-month period, and I'm going to give 50% of the profits for that for any of the sales to Compass to try and help them out moving forward.

Jackie Baxter: 23:09

I love that because it's it's that idea of giving back a little bit, isn't it, where you where you can. Um so yeah, that's beautiful. Um, and I think you know, you you talked about pacing, you know, it's it's something, you know, I can't remember your exact words, but you know, you you said that you you weren't very good at it to start with. And I think like, you know, who is? Um, you know, we all get introduced to pacing, don't we? And and we certainly for me, I did not understand how much less I needed to do in order to stop that kind of boom bust cycle. Um, you know, I was a, you know, I was a pro at booming and busting, you know, because as soon as I started feeling slightly better, I wanted to get out there and use all my energy for something that made me smile, which inevitably then, you know, I would be hitting the deck straight away afterwards because I just didn't have that discipline. Um, and then once you do then realize that there is, you know, there is discipline involved in it. Um, but also, you know, it it's not it it is so difficult to do because you know the condition is so fluctuating, isn't it? Is that what you meant when you said it was sort of a an art form rather than a science? It's that kind of, you know, you you gotta go with it kind of thing.

Ivor Clark: 24:28

Yeah, absolutely. I tried to track, I think on a couple occasions. I think that was one of the things that I got emailed through to me from Chase Tart and Stroke Scotland was uh a tracking, it was like a diary when you track your symptoms and track your energy levels and you mark it red, amber, and green. And I did this for two weeks and and looked at this this these two bits of paper, and I just thought, well, there's loads of red, amber, and green. And when I do too much, then I've got I've got no energy off the back of that. So that's not really a surprise. That hasn't helped me at all. I've just wasted a lot of energy trying to track my energy levels. So I found it more beneficial just to be, you know, be in the moment and track where I was at at that particular point. If my I would go in a Tesco and if my heart rate was at 95 beats per minute, and I would just have to stand still and just wait for it to drop down a little bit more, and quite often going in there because it was far too much stimulation, or you you know, the delights and the noise and moving about, then it would be, you know, the heart rate would would go up. Um, and that's why my uh my stepdaughter coming with me was was amazing, you know, helping me helping me through that. So yeah, it it really is an art rather than a science, and it was just finding that way. I believe I try to use a visible app as well for a period, and I think it's improved quite a lot because there is a wearable device that now is is tied into it. But I found it quite difficult at the time because you had to put your thumb over one of the cameras on your phone, and it gave you your heart rate variability, and it gave you your investment heart rate as well. And then you could track at the end of the day, you would track where you'd done, you where you've exerted yourself and how you found your energy levels, but it was just too much to do at that point. So I think the new visible app that now has a wearable actually attached to it would be amazing for anybody that's struggled with long COVID. Um, but it was just too much of a challenge for me at that point because it just didn't tie in. Um, so yeah, just just finding a way to rest and make sure you schedule in these rest periods throughout the day, you know, as the what is it, the four P's of pacing, pacing, planning, prioritizing, and then pleasure, I believe they say.

Jackie Baxter: 27:04

Yeah, absolutely. And and you know what, like that that pleasure is important. Um, you know, because I I think, you know, if someone had said to me, you know, what gives you pleasure, I'd have been like, oh, climbing hills, going out running, you know, I'd have said all the big things. Um, and then, you know, you look at your pacing and you're like, well, I can't do hill walking. I can't even get off my bed. Um, so therefore there's nothing that can give me pleasure and it's all rubbish. And then, you know, you get into that kind of like downward spiral of everything being, you know, just really awful. Um, and I think one of the things that really helped me was to really understand that, yeah, okay, there's great pleasure in doing big things, but actually it's those little things that are the really important ones. You know, what are the little things that make you smile? Um, so then you don't feel like you're giving up so much. Because, you know, basically is what it is, isn't it? In order to pace, you have to give up the stuff that you want to do in order to conserve energy for getting better. Um, you know, it's it's a it's a really crappy equation. Um, but then, you know, if you kind of reframe that kind of, okay, well, the big stuff will come. But right now, what are those little things that I want to do and that I can do if I'm actually successful with my pacing? Um, because we, you know, we do, it's it's hard to find anything that makes you smile even a little bit, isn't it, when everything is just so awful? Because it is, it's absolutely dreadful when you're out. Um so you said that you went back to work and your your your boss sounds amazing. Um, you know, it sounds like they were really, really helpful to you. And even though you, you know, sort of weren't quite ready to go back, they seem to make it as good as they possibly could have done for you. Yes. Um so how did that kind of go? And how did your sort of recovery go after that? Did you find that you really struggled when you went back to work, or did it actually go better than you thought? How did that go?

Ivor Clark: 29:11

It was a challenge for sure. And my manager, although he was extremely supportive, there was pressure put on him for me to be able to do more because I was a I was a team manager within an office, so I'm meant to be looking after other people. Um but I could hardly look at a computer screen for any length of time, I couldn't have conversations for any length of time because I could feel my system shutting down, I could feel you know this cognitive um shutdown where my brain and my body were just not cooperating. So I'd be having a conversation, I'd have to um pull back, you know, and and not be able to carry on. Um but what I did learn was that you know breathing exercises, um, being able to take myself away, um, and and I was also blessed that I could take my car into the office. So it was really limited parking spaces, but I could say that I had a temporary medical condition, and I was I was in the office for I think it was initially, I think for the first month I didn't go in. And then I had to go in, and it was just once a week, and then I went up to twice a week, and then you know, it did highlight that the improvements that I was making, that's for sure. Um, but also having my um car in the office meant that at my lunch break I could go down to my car and I could have a wee rest and I could do non-sleep deep rest and listen to listen to binaural beats and just put my sleep mask on and close my eyes for 20 minutes or such like and and just recharge to an extent. Um, so yeah, it was it was difficult, there's no doubt about it, and I had real doubts I was going to be able to carry on and do my job. Um, and I looked back at my journal entries as well for that time period, and I didn't know how I was going to be able to look after people because I I was really struggling to even look after myself, but you know, I found a way eventually, um, and it was just Just a case of just perseverance, I suppose, and and as I say, the breathing exercises made a real difference, and and obviously I I I did end up probably sitting here being able to have this conversation of the day if I had if I wasn't better. Um but I think I went back to work in March, and it wasn't until I believe round about the middle and end of September that I was fully recovered. So, but as I say, for these first probably four months when I was back, that was a real, real challenge. Um but yeah, I I got through it as you say, my my boss, not to give him too much of a big head, but he was extremely supportive, as were everybody else that I worked with, which were just so kind. And it was it's amazing when you go back to work and people see you and go, You look so well. Can't believe you you were off, and you're just thinking I might look well, but that's just because I've lost weight because I haven't been able to do anything for the past six months, and and even the the act of eating is is tiring, so you're not getting enough nutrition, and you're definitely not getting exercise. So you're you've lost weight, and people think, oh, you look better, you look amazing, and you're like, I don't feel it. So um, but yeah, everybody was lovely. So I was I was I was very lucky in that respect. Uh that I had such a supportive community in the workplace.

Jackie Baxter: 33:02

Yeah, and it sounds like you were able to quite well manage that kind of return where you know you started off not going in and then you went in sort of one day a week, and then you went in your two days, and you were able to kind of build that up very gradually, but also being, you know, actually it sounds like you were incredibly disciplined about doing your rest periods, doing your breathing exercises, and making sure that you did build them in. So despite the fact that, you know, you were maybe returning to work a little earlier than you would have liked to, you know, you were making it work by fitting all the good stuff in around the stuff that you had to do. And obviously the really supportive work environment was was probably very key to that as well. So you, you know, you did feel like you were able to. Um so uh yeah, and it's you know, it's it's very gratifying to hear, you know, you hear about people, you know, needing to return to work because of finances or because they're going to lose their job, or you know, there's so many pressures. And you know, there's always that concern of, well, I'm not ready, I'm not ready, I'm not ready. And actually you weren't ready either, but actually you did manage to manage it. So it is possible, um, which is which is really awesome to hear. Um, you know, I think there'll be people listening who maybe are are having similar concerns. So um, yeah, it's it's really great to hear that that did actually work for you. Um so um, so you said it took you uh a bit of time to sort of build back up to the work, and then it was later in the year. Um, so what did that kind of final recovery period look like, you know, um when when you were sort of like, oh, I'm fully recovered. What did that look like? What did the, you know, was it a sudden thing? Was it a gradual thing? Where was that moment of realization? Um, and how did you know?

Ivor Clark: 35:20

Good question. It was it was gradual. So there was a period there, as I say, when I went back to work, probably about four months when I was managing the condition, and I looked into peptides was the big thing which I then implemented. And don't get me wrong, I was also utilising methylene blue, urolithin A, um rhodiola roseo, I think it's called. Goodness knows how many other supplements I've tried. Um do you know, but I'd cleaned up my diet, I'd made sure that um, you know, things that were overstimulating for my system, I'd cut out quite early on. So alcohol, I realised that wasn't helping me. Not that I drank too much in the first instance. I don't want to give people a wrong impression, but I you know, I'm I had to cut it out. So even half a glass of wine, I realised I was just feeling terrible afterwards. So I'd just cut out caffeine, I had to cut out um music, I had to cut out, so all these things that were just overstimulating. So yeah, I'd been managing it for that period, and then I started trying peptides. Um, I'd read about one that was for mitochondrial support that's called MOT SC. Um, and I tried that for about four or five weeks, and that was something I'd noticed after I'd taken that, it was a weekly injection, and after about four weeks, I'd noticed that I was able to do quite a lot. Like I walked the dog for an hour, and then I went for a shower, and then I went to the hairdressers, and I did all that back to back, and my heart rate got to 140 beats per minute. And I still remember the day when I spoke to my eldest stepdaughter in the afternoon, and I actually said to her, This is the best I've felt in a year, and I'm definitely not fully recovered at that stage, I was nowhere near it because I was I was exhausted by the evening, and I was still I could still feel that the fatigue was there and a brain fog to an extent. But I I said to her at that point, I could live like this, this is so much better than I was. And then I tried other ones that were more for immune support over the next, you know, probably four to eight weeks, and it was definitely a gradual process, and I think the main thing is you don't know when you're fully recovered and you don't trust your body because your body just doesn't hasn't felt the same for such a long period of time, you know. That normal has been your previous one of the big things from a mindset perspective is realizing that the normal you had before you got on well doesn't exist anymore, and you had to just accept that this is a new normal, and but then when you get to the stage that you're fully recovered, you're back to a different kind of normal, and it's not the one that you were before because you've had been through this whole journey, and you've had to you know learn so much about your body and be far more mindful, and you've unable you're unable to be athletic as you were prior to becoming unwell. Um, so yeah, it just takes a while to you know build that confidence and that courage to to start being able to go out and do things and potentially start exercising, and and then you realize that you're able to sit and have conversations for a period of time or sit in front of a computer or whatever. Um, so yeah, it takes a while, but when you do it's building that confidence, as I say, is the main thing.

Jackie Baxter: 39:20

Yeah, and I, you know, I I sort of had this experience and I've heard other people say similar, um, where they sort of, you know, they are, they're just doing, they're doing better and better and better. And you know, you don't really notice that day to day because you know, maybe the improvements are so small or barely noticeable day to day, but you know, you're just starting to do more and feel better and integrate, you know, more into you know life. Um, and and then it's that kind of, you know, for me, it was like, oh, actually, I think I've been okay for a wee bit now. But certainly for me, I I had to like sit with that for a bit because I was like, I didn't trust it. Um I thought, you know, I've I felt a bit better before, like I know what happens next. Um, so I'm not going to say anything. So I kind of had to just keep quiet and be like, okay, am I still okay? Am I still okay? Am I still okay? And eventually it was when I was like, okay, yeah, we're we're good. Um, but it is, it's, it's almost that, yeah, building, building confidence back in your own body, isn't it? And that trust. Because when you get unwell with something like this, you you lose all trust in your body because it doesn't do what it's what you what it you're what you're expecting of it, uh and what you have expected of it for your entire life. And it's generally done what it's told. Um and then suddenly, suddenly the whole house of cards comes down, isn't it? Um so yeah, it sounds like you um yeah, sort of gradually eased into it, um, which is really cool.

Ivor Clark: 40:46

Yeah, absolutely. I know when you realize you haven't had a crash, and the number of days and weeks and months that have gone past that you haven't had a crash, and and you the post-exertional malaise isn't wearing its ugly head for a period of time, and and you're able to get out and about and do a number of things, and do you know you're it you're still having to rest because that doesn't pass for a period of time, but it's just because for me personally, you know, I wasn't I wasn't well for 15 months, or sure I wasn't able to do it for 15 months, I'd lost all this level of fitness. Um so yeah, of course I was having a rest, but that's the kind of confusing part that you know you're in such bad shape afterwards that this isn't you're not clear if you're fully recovered, but you do realize you're just you're just out of shape as opposed to actually having uh having something that's been such an impact to yourself for a period of time.

Jackie Baxter: 41:47

Yeah, and then it's that case of gradually. Um I I think I said to myself, I'm not an ill person anymore, I'm an unfit person. Um, but the thing for me, I'd never been an unfit person in my life, so I didn't really know how to be an unfit person. So I sort of had to look up how to do that. Um, but you know, it it's it's the most wonderful problem to have, isn't it? When you get to that point where you think, actually, you know, my problem here is the D-word. It is that I'm deconditioned, it's not that I'm sick, it is actually that because I haven't been able to do things for so long, I now do have to kind of regain my fitness. And uh yeah, it I I think it's the best problem in the world. It feels so good, doesn't it, to to have like sore muscles.

Ivor Clark: 42:30

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's building up that you know, it's it's having a different view of what exercise is. So, you know, just being able to do one push-up, or instead of having to sit down in the on a shower stool in the shower, or sit down as you're on the edge of the bath as you're brushing your teeth, you're able to stand up, and then next thing you maybe I do a mindfulness practice that I stand on one foot as I'm brushing my teeth. It's partly mindfulness, it's partly to improve my balance because my balance is so rubbish. Um, and my wife looks at me like, look at the state of what I've married, um, but I'm standing there on one foot. But I had to build up to that, and that is now, you know, it's and also building up from doing one push-up or one body weight squat and just realizing well this is where I'm at. You know, I'm I'm lucky that I'm actually able to do this amount of exercise in the first place, and you know, increase progressively increase up you know, upon that. So yeah, it's it's slow for sure, but it's it's amazing.

Jackie Baxter: 43:40

Yeah, yeah, it's it's that increasing things in a quote unquote normal way, um, you know, in yeah, which is as as you say, it's it's a wonderful thing to be able to do after so long of of not. Um so I think maybe finally I would say what what advice would you give yourself, you know, from this position of having come through, what do you think Ivor from before, you know, from while he was ill would have wanted to hear or needed to hear, maybe?

Ivor Clark: 44:17

Yeah, maybe not wanted to hear. Um I think it's just being aware of the fundamentals and the foundations, and you know, we mentioned before about pacing, it was foreign to me. Um you know, utilising non-sleep, deep rest, um, doing these breathing exercises, I would have I would have put these um fundamentals in place a lot sooner. Cleaning up my my diet, um making sure, you know, I limited the amount of sugar and caffeine and alcohol and overstimulation, whether that's music or or light or the TV or whatever, and just not thinking that was better in that first instance after that first six weeks when the the uh antibiotics kicked in. I think I would have taken it a lot slower and been far more aware of that that if I could have spoken to myself at that point, it was like, listen, don't go out and rip up that plant, and you know, take it a lot slower and just be a lot more aware of the you know the ongoing impact you could have. But yeah, the the the foundational stuff, the fundamentals, um putting that in place, you know, the breathing exercises and not overdoing it, and um non-sleep deep rest and vagus nerve work that I did as well. That is that's the stuff that makes the biggest difference, the biggest difference. Um, and obviously further down the line, I you know, I I tried peptides and I would have done them a lot sooner than others and waiting over a year to to introduce them. So there was those big ticket items and and not flinging so much money at you know, so many different supplements that probably didn't make any difference, but you know, you don't know at the time because you just try to find the answer.

Jackie Baxter: 46:25

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's it's finding the things that make the biggest difference and then consistently doing them, I think. And uh, you know, those things are subtly different for different people. Um, but it's it's finding what that is for for you, yeah. Amazing. Ivart, thank you so much uh for coming and sharing your story, um, for chatting to me, uh, for sharing some hope and some ideas. Um, it's been amazing connecting with you uh and chatting and hearing your story. If anyone wants to connect with you or to uh buy your book, um I will make sure that those links go into the show notes. So do go and check that out if you're interested. And uh yeah, thanks so much for being here.

Ivor Clark: 47:11

Thank you. I appreciate that.